Kathāvatthu: An exploration of the text and its meaning

Discussion of Abhidhamma and related Commentaries
SarathW
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Re: Kathāvatthu: An exploration of the text and its meaning

Post by SarathW »

Hi DD
It is good if you make a separate post for each KV.
This is to help people who search this topic in the net and in DW.
Please mention the KV number in the subject line.
:thanks:
Last edited by SarathW on Thu Jun 10, 2021 11:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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DooDoot
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Re: Kathāvatthu: An exploration of the text and its meaning

Post by DooDoot »

Maggakathā - an interesting quibble about the Path - can it be five-fold? :alien:
Controverted Point: That the Path is fivefold only.

Theravādin: But was not the Path pronounced by the Exalted One to be eightfold—namely, right views, right purpose, right speech, action, and livelihood, right effort, mindfulness, and concentration?

And did he not also say:

“Of all the means the Eightfold Path is best,
And best of all true things the Stages Four;
Best state of mind disinterestedness,
And of all bipeds best the man-who-sees”?

Surely, then, the Path is eightfold.

PTS cs 20.5.3But you tell me that though these three—right speech, right action, right livelihood—are factors of the Path, nevertheless they are not path, PTS cs 20.5.4 while the other five are both factors of the Path and Path. Why this distinction?

Mahiṁsāsaka: But was it not said by the Exalted One:

“For him who has hitherto been quite pure in karma of deed and of word and of livelihood, this Ariyan Eightfold Path will go to perfection of development”?
MN 149 wrote:Any view belonging to one who has come to be like this is his right view. Any resolve, his right resolve. Any effort, his right effort. Any mindfulness, his right mindfulness. Any concentration, his right concentration: just as earlier his actions, speech, & livelihood were already well-purified. Thus for him, having thus developed the noble eightfold path, the four frames of reference go to the culmination of their development. The four right exertions... the four bases of power... the five faculties... the five strengths... the seven factors for Awakening go to the culmination of their development. [And] for him these two qualities occur in tandem: tranquillity & insight.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Hence surely the Path is fivefold.

Theravādin: PTS cs 20.5.6But was it not said by the Exalted One:

“In whatsoever doctrine and discipline, Subhadda, the Ariyan Eightfold Path is not found, neither in it is there found a saintly man of the first, or of the second, or of the third, or of the fourth degree. And in whatsoever doctrine and discipline, Subhadda, the Ariyan Eightfold Path is found, in it is such a saintly man found. Now in this doctrine and discipline, Subhadda, is found the Ariyan Eightfold Path, and in it, too, are found men of saintliness of all four degrees. Void are the systems of other teachers, void of saintly men”?

Hence surely the Path is eightfold.

https://suttacentral.net/kv20.5/en/aung-rhysdavids
It appears a valid assertion the part of the Path that enters the stream is five-fold. That is, when formally meditating, the Path is fivefold.
Last edited by DooDoot on Thu Jun 10, 2021 11:25 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Kathāvatthu: An exploration of the text and its meaning

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Saddaṁsuṇātītikathā - on hearing sound in jhana - basic but good :meditate:
Points of Controversy
18.8 Of Hearing in Jhāna
Controverted Point: That one who has attained Jhāna hears sound.

Theravādin: PTS cs 18.8.1If so, it must be equally allowed that he can also see, smell, taste and touch objects. This you deny … You must also allow that he enters Jhāna enjoying auditory consciousness. You deny, for you agree that concentration arises in one who is enjoying mental objects as such? PTS cs 18.8.2 But if you admit that anyone who is actually enjoying sounds hears sounds, and that concentration is the property of one who is actually enjoying mental objects as such, you should not affirm that one in the concentration of Jhāna hears sounds. If you insist that he does, you have here two parallel mental procedures going on at the same time … .

Pubbaseliya: PTS cs 18.8.3But was it not said by the Exalted One that

“Sound is a thorn for First Jhāna”?

Hence one in Jhāna can surely hear sound.

Theravādin: You say that one in Jhāna can hear sound, and quote the Word as to it being for First Jhāna a “thorn”. Now it was further said that thought applied and sustained is a thorn for Second Jhāna—does one in Second Jhāna have applied and sustained thought? … Again, it was further said that the mental factor last eliminated is a thorn for the stage newly attained—zest for Third, respiration for Fourth Jhāna, perception of visible objects for consciousness of space-infinity, this perception for that of consciousness as infinite, this perception for that of nothingness, perception and feeling for cessation of these in trance. Now is “the thorn” actually present on the winning of the stage whence it is pronounced to be a thorn? If not, then how can you say that the “thorn” of hearing sound is present to one in First Jhāna?

https://suttacentral.net/kv18.8/en/aung-rhysdavids
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atipattoh
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Re: Kathāvatthu: Satipaṭṭhānakathā ???

Post by atipattoh »

Hi,
Coëmgenu wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 4:49 am
Let's try to replace the word for sati.
Andhaka: Then is it wrong to say “all things are applications of reflexivity”?

Theravādin: Yes.

Andhaka: But is not reflectiveness established concerning all cognizable things?

Theravādin: Yes.
Andhaka: sati (reflexivity) as an “active” agent: apilāpana reflectiveness + reflexiveness (embracing) upaggaṇhana
A mixture of both. No seperation into former or latter.

Theravādin: sati as an “passive” agent
reflectiveness --> reflexiveness (embracing);
former essence might, but not necessarily lead to the latter essence.
Sammā or micchā is within the latter, but not the former.

Looking from this direction, then, the dispute is about the definition.
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Re: Kathāvatthu: Brahmacariyakathā ???

Post by 4GreatHeavenlyKings »

DooDoot wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 10:54 am i thought to add Issariyakāmakārikādikathā to this topic:
Points of Controversy
23.3 Of Self-governed Destiny
Controverted Point: That a Bodhisat (or future Buddha) (a) goes to an evil doom, (b) enters a womb, (c) performs hard tasks, (d) works penance under alien teachers of his own accord and free will.

Theravādin: PTS cs 23.3.1(a) Do you mean that he so went and endured purgatory, the Sañjīva, Kālasutta, Tāpana, Patāpana, Sanghātaka, Roruva, and Avīchi hells? If you deny, how can you maintain your proposition? Can you quote me a Sutta to support this?

PTS cs 23.3.2(b) You maintain that he entered the womb of his own free will. Do you also imply that he chose to be reborn in purgatory, or as an animal? That he possessed magic potency? You deny. I ask it again. You assent. Then did he practise the Four Steps to that potency—will, effort, thought, investigation? Neither can you quote me here a Sutta in justification.

https://suttacentral.net/kv23.3/en/aung-rhysdavids
The above is strange because MN 123 appears to say the Bodhisat entered his mother's womb with sati-sampajanna:
‘Mindful and aware, the being intent on awakening passed away from the host of Joyful Gods and was conceived in his mother’s womb.’

‘sato sampajāno, ānanda, bodhisatto tusitā, kāyā cavitvā mātukucchiṁ okkamī’ti.

https://suttacentral.net/mn123/en/sujato
Ah, but an argument could be made that MN 123 does not say that the Bodhisatta entered his mother's womb of his own free will - only aware as it was happening.
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Re: Kathāvatthu: An exploration of the text and its meaning

Post by SarathW »

Ah, but an argument could be made that MN 123 does not say that the Bodhisatta entered his mother's womb of his own free will - only aware as it was happening.
But there is a Buddhist story to say that Bodhisatva looks for five qualities (time, continent, place, caste, and the mother) to be present in his future mother and he chooses Mahamaya.
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SarathW
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Re: Kathāvatthu: An exploration of the text and its meaning

Post by SarathW »

You might like to be reading this translation as well.

https://archive.org/details/PointsOfCon ... ew=theater
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Re: Kathāvatthu: Brahmacariyakathā ???

Post by DooDoot »

4GreatHeavenlyKings wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 1:55 am Ah, but an argument could be made that MN 123 does not say that the Bodhisatta entered his mother's womb of his own free will - only aware as it was happening.
Not really. 'Rebirth' is related to dukkha but mindfulness & clear-comprehension is related to freedom from dukkha.
SarathW wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 4:02 am But there is a Buddhist story to say that Bodhisatva looks for five qualities (time, continent, place, caste, and the mother) to be present in his future mother and he chooses Mahamaya.
This topic is about Kathāvatthu. The impression is the Kathāvatthu does not agree with MN 123.
Last edited by DooDoot on Sun Jun 13, 2021 5:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Kathāvatthu: Satipaṭṭhānakathā ???

Post by DooDoot »

Coëmgenu wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 5:43 am That the Āndhaka suggests that "all things" can be/are "applications in mindfulness, they could be suggesting that violence or copulation, for instance, can be an object of satipaṭṭhāna, which is of course rejected by the Theravādin. Whether the Āndhakas themselves believed this or whether it is a consequence of their belief that the Theravādin is stressing the incoherency of is unclear if this is the case.
I think the Theravadin Abhidhamma view is similar to my view on satipatthana but contrary to the SarathW view and even contrary to the MN 10 & DN 22 papanca. To try to read this translation again:
Kathāvatthu wrote:Theravādin: Then must you also admit that all cognizable things constitute mindfulness, the controlling faculty and force of mindfulness, mindfulness that is perfect, that is a factor of enlightenment, the “sole conveying” path “leading to extinction”, to “enlightenment”, to “disintegration”, are “not bound up with the intoxicants”, “not akin to the fetters, ties, floods, bonds, hindrances, contagions, graspings, corruptions”; you must admit that all cognizable things constitute the “ten recollections”, namely of the Buddha, the Norm, the Order, morals, pious liberality, the devas, “mindfulness in respiration”, “reflection on death”, “mindfulness concerning the body”, “reflection on peace”. But this you deny.

Again, you must equally admit, given your first affirmation, that the eye-organ constitutes an application in mindfulness. And if you are driven to admit that it does, then you must admit everything for it, which, as I claim, you must admit for all cognizable things. The same argument holds for the four other sense-organs, for the five objects of sense, for lust, hate, dullness, conceit, error, doubt, sloth, distraction, impudence, indiscretion.
Now when the Vibhanga describes the 4th Satipatthana, it describes it as I would, namely, totally free from the five hindrances, as follows:
Vibhanga wrote:And how does a monk dwell contemplating (the nature of) things in (various) things?

Here a monk, at whatever time, develops the supermundane absorption, which leads out, which goes to decrease (of rebirth), to abandonment of wrong views, to the attainment of the first ground, (where,) quite secluded from sense desires, secluded from unwholesome things, having thinking, reflection, and the happiness and rapture born of seclusion, he dwells, having attained the first absorption, with difficulty in practice and slow deepening of knowledge, and he contemplates (the nature of) things in (various) things, and that which at that time is mindfulness, recollection, Right Mindfulness, the Mindfulness factor of Complete Awakening, the Path factor, and what belongs to the Path: this is said to be ‘attending to mindfulness.’

https://suttacentral.net/vb7/en/anandajoti#pts-cs378
Therefore, it appears, as we sort of suggested, the Kathāvatthu is saying:

1. Satipatthana is only supramundane mind; “not bound up with the intoxicants”, “not akin to the fetters, ties, floods, bonds, hindrances, contagions, graspings, corruptions”

2. Therefore, all mental states cannot be included in satipatthana.

:alien:

We now have another Kathāvatthu expert on the forum, below, who can possibly help us: :roll:
Dhammavamsa wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 5:41 am
SarathW wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 5:29 am I think the easiest to understand in Abhidhamma Pitaka is the Points of controversy.
What is your favorite out of these seven books?


https://suttacentral.net/pitaka/abhidhamma/pli-tv-ab
Kathavathu is my favourite too in Abhidhamma Pitaka so far. Plus, it was clearly stated that it was expounded by Bhante Arahant Moggaliputta Tissa Thera to put down the heresies of Sarvastivada, Mahasanghika and Vajjiputtaka sects. It is quite a important book. And through his disciple, Bhante Arahant Mahinda Thera brought the Pali Tipitaka to Lankadipa, well examined, well analysed and well taught by the Arahantas, from this it further increases my confidence in the Suttas and their commentaries.
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Re: Kathāvatthu: Satipaṭṭhānakathā ???

Post by Coëmgenu »

Coëmgenu wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 8:11 amA key to figuring out what exactly the Āndhaka is saying will be figuring out why the Theravādin believes that "sabbe dhammā satipaṭṭhānā" necessitates "phassapaṭṭhānā."
I think the previous hypothesis was correct. If "all dhammas" are the valid object of satipaṭṭhāna according to the Āndhaka, then it follows that "all contact" is similarly satipaṭṭhāna. That's why the Theravadin coins the terms "phassapaṭṭhāna" etc. They mean "satipaṭṭhāna of all contact at the sense bases (including unskillful dhammas and dhammas that are not the objects of sammāsati)" by "phassapaṭṭhāna" if I'm correct.
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Re: Kathāvatthu: An exploration of the text and its meaning

Post by DooDoot »

OK. This is a matter I have vacillated on myself. Lets see how it goes. :smile:
Points of Controversy
6.2 Of Causal Genesis
Controverted Point: That the causal elements in the law of causal genesis are unconditioned.

Paṭiccasamuppādo asaṅkhatoti?

This is exactly similar to the opening argument in Kv 6.1 PTS CS 6.1.1.

Theravādin: Would you say that any single term in each clause of the formula of causal genesis refers to something unconditioned, for instance, “ignorance”, or “karma”, in the clause “because of ignorance, karma”, etc.? No? Then how can you maintain your thesis?

Pubbaseliya, Mahiṁsāsaka: If we are wrong, why did the Exalted One say as follows:

“`Because of birth, bhikkhus, comes decay and death'; whether Tathāgatas arise or not, this element stands as the establishing of things as effects, as the marking out of things as effects, as the cause of this or that (idappaccayatā). Concerning this element a Tathāgata becomes enlightened, and penetrates it. Thus enlightened and penetrating, he declares, teaches, makes known, lays it down, reveals, dispenses, makes manifest, and behold! he saith: `Because of birth, bhikkhus, comes decay and death'. `Because of the tendency to become comes birth. Because of … and so on, back to'. `Because of ignorance comes karma'. Thus, bhikkhus, this element, stable, constant, immutable, is called a causal term in the law of causal genesis” (paṭiccasamuppādo)?

Surely then the causal element in that law is unconditioned. (Tena hi paṭiccasamuppādo asaṅkhatoti)

Theravādin: In the clause “Because of ignorance karma”, the former is that which establishes, which marks out the latter as its effect. And Nibbāna is unconditioned—you affirm both of these? Yes? Then are there two unconditioneds? … two shelters … (as in PTS CS 6.2.1)? (“Avijjāpaccayā saṅkhārā”ti yā tattha dhammaṭṭhitatā dhammaniyāmatā asaṅkhatā, nibbānaṁ asaṅkhatanti? Āmantā. Dve asaṅkhatānīti?)

And if in the next clause: “Because of karma, consciousness”, you affirm that karma is unconditioned, are there then three unconditioneds? … .

And so on, affirming that each of the remaining nine terms and Nibbāna are unconditioned: are there then twelve unconditioneds? … twelve shelters, twelve refuges, etc.?

Of course you deny, hence you cannot affirm that the causal term in the law of causal genesis is unconditioned.

https://suttacentral.net/kv6.2/en/aung-rhysdavids
To me, the above argument of the Theravadins is unconvincing.

When the Buddha said the law of idappaccayatā was fixed, he was referring to the law. There is only one law rather than twelve laws.

I think the answer to this matter is simply the term "fixed" ("ṭhitā") is not synonymous with the term "unconditioned" ("asankhata").
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SarathW
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Re: Kathāvatthu: An exploration of the text and its meaning

Post by SarathW »

Sorry I even can't understand the problem.
Can you explain this in lay terms please?
Are they saying that anything fixed is unconditioned?
For instance Akasa (space) is fixed but it is not Nibbana.
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Re: Kathāvatthu: An exploration of the text and its meaning

Post by DooDoot »

SarathW wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 4:10 am Sorry I even can't understand the problem.
Can you explain this in lay terms please?
Are they saying that anything fixed is unconditioned?
The Buddha taught the law of cause & effect (idappaccayatā) and the law of dependent origination (paṭiccasamuppādo) are "fixed". What this means is all things (except Nibbana) are always conditioned and all suffering must arise via the law of dependent origination.

Buddha also taught impermanence, unsatisfactoriness & not-self are fixed.

If you asked the question: "is impermanence unconditioned or conditioned?" how would you reply? :shrug:

The Pubbaseliya & Mahiṁsāsaka asserted what is "fixed" is also "unconditioned".

The Theravadin replied with papanca. :smile:
SarathW wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 4:10 amFor instance Akasa (space) is fixed ....
:roll:
Last edited by DooDoot on Wed Jun 23, 2021 4:56 am, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: Kathāvatthu: Satipaṭṭhānakathā ???

Post by Spiny Norman »

Coëmgenu wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 7:02 am
Coëmgenu wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 8:11 amA key to figuring out what exactly the Āndhaka is saying will be figuring out why the Theravādin believes that "sabbe dhammā satipaṭṭhānā" necessitates "phassapaṭṭhānā."
I think the previous hypothesis was correct. If "all dhammas" are the valid object of satipaṭṭhāna according to the Āndhaka, then it follows that "all contact" is similarly satipaṭṭhāna. That's why the Theravadin coins the terms "phassapaṭṭhāna" etc. They mean "satipaṭṭhāna of all contact at the sense bases (including unskillful dhammas and dhammas that are not the objects of sammāsati)" by "phassapaṭṭhāna" if I'm correct.
If phassapatthana includes both skillful and unskillful contact, would that explain the inclusion of the hindrances in the fourth frame of MN10?
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