What is the 7th consciousness in Abhidhamma ???

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DooDoot
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What is the 7th consciousness in Abhidhamma ???

Post by DooDoot »

Dear Abhidhamma expert/s

The Vibhanga says:
Therein what are the seven (types of) contact in the element of desire? Eye contact, ear contact, nose contact, tongue contact, body contact, mind element contact, mind-consciousness-element contact. These are called the seven (types of) contact in the element of desire. (8)

Therein what are the seven (types of) feeling in the element of desire? Feeling born of eye contact, feeling born of ear contact, feeling born of nose contact, feeling born of tongue contact, feeling born of body contact, feeling born of mind element contact, feeling born of mind-consciousness-element contact. These are called the seven (types of) feeling in the element of desire. (9)

Therein what are the seven (types of) perception in the element of desire? Perception born of eye contact, perception born of ear contact, perception born of nose contact, perception born of tongue contact, perception born of body contact, perception born of mind element contact, perception born of mind-consciousness-element contact. These are called the seven (types of) perception in the element of desire. (10)

Therein what are the seven (types of) volition in the element of desire? Volition born of eye contact, volition born of ear contact, volition born of nose contact, volition born of tongue contact, volition born of body contact, volition born of mind element contact, volition born of mind-consciousness-element contact. These are called the seven (types of) volition in the element of desire. (11)

Therein what are the seven (types of) consciousness in the element of desire? Eye consciousness, ear consciousness, nose consciousness, tongue consciousness, body consciousness, mind element, mind-consciousness-element. These are called the seven (types of) consciousness in the element of desire. (12)

https://suttacentral.net/vb18/en/thittila
I cannot access the Pali on SC.

My questions are:

1. What is the difference between "mind element" and "mind-consciousness-element"?

2. Why is "mind element" a type of consciousness?

Thank you :thanks:
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confusedlayman
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Re: What is the 7th consciousness in Abhidhamma ???

Post by confusedlayman »

DooDoot wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 12:16 pm Dear Abhidhamma expert/s

The Vibhanga says:
Therein what are the seven (types of) contact in the element of desire? Eye contact, ear contact, nose contact, tongue contact, body contact, mind element contact, mind-consciousness-element contact. These are called the seven (types of) contact in the element of desire. (8)

Therein what are the seven (types of) feeling in the element of desire? Feeling born of eye contact, feeling born of ear contact, feeling born of nose contact, feeling born of tongue contact, feeling born of body contact, feeling born of mind element contact, feeling born of mind-consciousness-element contact. These are called the seven (types of) feeling in the element of desire. (9)

Therein what are the seven (types of) perception in the element of desire? Perception born of eye contact, perception born of ear contact, perception born of nose contact, perception born of tongue contact, perception born of body contact, perception born of mind element contact, perception born of mind-consciousness-element contact. These are called the seven (types of) perception in the element of desire. (10)

Therein what are the seven (types of) volition in the element of desire? Volition born of eye contact, volition born of ear contact, volition born of nose contact, volition born of tongue contact, volition born of body contact, volition born of mind element contact, volition born of mind-consciousness-element contact. These are called the seven (types of) volition in the element of desire. (11)

Therein what are the seven (types of) consciousness in the element of desire? Eye consciousness, ear consciousness, nose consciousness, tongue consciousness, body consciousness, mind element, mind-consciousness-element. These are called the seven (types of) consciousness in the element of desire. (12)

https://suttacentral.net/vb18/en/thittila
I cannot access the Pali on SC.

My questions are:

1. What is the difference between "mind element" and "mind-consciousness-element"?

2. Why is "mind element" a type of consciousness?

Thank you :thanks:
mental thoughts?
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
SarathW
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Re: What is the 7th consciousness in Abhidhamma ???

Post by SarathW »

Without the Pali word I can't be certain of my answer.
Perhaps this is referring to Citta and Cetasika.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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DooDoot
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Re: What is the 7th consciousness in Abhidhamma ???

Post by DooDoot »

SarathW wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 1:30 am Without the Pali word I can't be certain of my answer.
Perhaps this is referring to Citta and Cetasika.
The Pali is:
986. Tattha katame satta phassā? Cakkhusamphasso, sotasamphasso, ghānasamphasso, jivhāsamphasso, kāyasamphasso, manodhātusamphasso, manoviññāṇadhātusamphasso – ime vuccanti ‘‘satta phassā’’.

987. Tattha katamā satta vedanā? Cakkhusamphassajā vedanā, sotasamphassajā vedanā, ghānasamphassajā vedanā, jivhāsamphassajā vedanā, kāyasamphassajā vedanā, manodhātusamphassajā vedanā, manoviññāṇadhātusamphassajā vedanā – imā vuccanti ‘‘satta vedanā’’.

988. Tattha katamā satta saññā? Cakkhusamphassajā saññā, sotasamphassajā saññā, ghānasamphassajā saññā, jivhāsamphassajā saññā, kāyasamphassajā saññā, manodhātusamphassajā saññā, manoviññāṇadhātusamphassajā saññā – imā vuccanti ‘‘satta saññā’’.

989. Tattha katamā satta cetanā? Cakkhusamphassajā cetanā, sotasamphassajā cetanā, ghānasamphassajā cetanā, jivhāsamphassajā cetanā, kāyasamphassajā cetanā, manodhātusamphassajā cetanā, manoviññāṇadhātusamphassajā cetanā – imā vuccanti ‘‘satta cetanā’’.

990. Tattha katamāni satta cittāni? Cakkhuviññāṇaṃ, sotaviññāṇaṃ, ghānaviññāṇaṃ, jivhāviññāṇaṃ , kāyaviññāṇaṃ, manodhātu, manoviññāṇadhātu – imāni vuccanti ‘‘satta cittāni’’.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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SarathW
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Re: What is the 7th consciousness in Abhidhamma ???

Post by SarathW »

his term, unlike manāyatana, does not apply to the whole of consciousness, but designates only that special element of consciousness which first, at the beginning of the process of sense-perception, performs the function of advertence (āvajjana; Tab. I, 70) to the sense-object and, then after twice having become conscious of it performs the function of reception (sampaticchana; Tab I- 39,.55) into mind-consciousness.
https://www.wisdomlib.org/definition/manodhatu
A complete thought process, occurring through the physical sense doors, is made up of
seventeen thought moments (citta khaṇa). These are:
https://www.dhammatalks.net/Books13/Men ... actice.pdf

My guess is that there is no special organ like eye or ear for the mind consciousness.
So the signals has to go through two doors.
:shrug:
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
atipattoh
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Re: What is the 7th consciousness in Abhidhamma ???

Post by atipattoh »

Hi DD,
DooDoot wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 12:16 pm The Vibhanga says:
Therein what are the seven (types of) contact in the element of desire? Eye contact, ear contact, nose contact, tongue contact, body contact, mind element contact, mind-consciousness-element contact. These are called the seven (types of) contact in the element of desire. (8)
I'm no Abhidhamma expert, but you may look at it from this SN36.6 The Dart
“Bhikkhus, when the uninstructed worldling is being contacted by a painful feeling, he sorrows, grieves, and laments; he weeps beating his breast and becomes distraught. He feels two feelings—a bodily one and a mental one.

Suppose they were to strike a man with a dart, and then they would strike him immediately afterwards with a second dart, so that the man would feel a feeling caused by two darts. So too, when the uninstructed worldling is being contacted by a painful feeling … he feels two feelings—a bodily one and a mental one.
(kāyikañca) Bodily --> Brain --> Mind-element - 1st dart on mind door
(cetasikañca) Mentally --> Mind-Consciousness-element - 2nd dart
atipattoh
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Re: What is the 7th consciousness in Abhidhamma ???

Post by atipattoh »

Hi DD,
atipattoh wrote: Wed Jun 30, 2021 11:28 am (kāyikañca) Bodily --> Brain --> Mind-element - 1st dart on mind door
The above can be misleading, i should put it this way.
(kāyikañca) Bodily --> Brain - | -> Mind-element - 1st dart on mind door
The brain is not the mind itself.
There is an explanation in the same link in upādāyarūpa thread on SA322
The guy explain it like this
意根無對
意根的功能,和現代所謂的大腦功能相近,因此有同學就問道:「腦是佔空間且具有障礙性的,那為何意根是無對?」

(Internal) Mind sense base is non-obstructive.
The function of the mind sense base is similar to the modern so-called brain function, so some students asked: “The brain is space-consuming and obstructive, so why is the mind sense base non-obstructive?”

意根是心作為感官,可能在身體上的投射為大腦的運作。意根可以比喻為電腦軟體,軟體和硬體搭配才能運作,但軟體本身是不佔空間、不具障礙性的抽象的程式語言邏輯運算。意根雖然在身體上可能反映為大腦的運作,但身體的大腦(硬體)不算是意根(軟體)。

The mind sense base is the heart being the sense organ, which may be projected on the body as the operation of the brain. The metaphor of mind sense base is similar to computer software, which can only work with software and hardware, but the software itself is an abstract programming language logic operation that does not take up (additional) space and is not obstructive. Although the mind sense base may be reflected in the operation of the brain in the body, the brain (hardware) of the body is not considered as the mind sense base (software)
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