Vibhanga: How is kayanupassana practised in 1st jhana ???

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DooDoot
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Vibhanga: How is kayanupassana practised in 1st jhana ???

Post by DooDoot »

Dear Abhidhamma expert/s

The Vibhanga appears to say, consistent with Sutta, the experience of the 1st jhana only has five factors, namely:
12.2. Analysis According to Abhidhamma
12.2.1. Skilful Dhammas Characteristic of the Plane of Form
The four jhānas are: First jhāna, second jhāna, third jhāna, fourth jhāna.

Therein what is first jhāna? Herein at the time when a monk develops the path for rebirth in the plane of form, he, aloof from sense pleasures, See section 205. attains and dwells in earth-totality first jhāna; at that time there is five constituent jhāna (viz.) initial application, sustained application, rapture, pleasure, one-pointedness of consciousness. This is called first jhāna. (As also are) The remaining dhammas associated with the jhāna. (1)

https://suttacentral.net/vb12/en/thittila
If fact, the Saddaṁsuṇātītikathā appears to highlight the logical notion that two parallel mental procedures cannot occur in jhana, namely:
Controverted Point: That one who has attained Jhāna hears sound.

Theravādin: PTS cs 18.8.1If so, it must be equally allowed that he can also see, smell, taste and touch objects. This you deny … You must also allow that he enters Jhāna enjoying auditory consciousness. You deny, for you agree that concentration arises in one who is enjoying mental objects as such? PTS cs 18.8.2 But if you admit that anyone who is actually enjoying sounds hears sounds, and that concentration is the property of one who is actually enjoying mental objects as such, you should not affirm that one in the concentration of Jhāna hears sounds. If you insist that he does, you have here two parallel mental procedures going on at the same time … .

https://suttacentral.net/kv18.8/en/aung-rhysdavids
Yet the Vibhanga appears to say kayanupassana (which Sutta says includes experiencing the "whole ;) body" and "calming the breathing") is practised in the 1st jhana, as follows:
7.2. The Section Derived from the Abstract Teaching
7.2.1. The First Method
Four Ways of Attending to Mindfulness:

Here a monk, at whatever time, develops the supermundane absorption, which leads out, which goes to decrease (of rebirth), to abandonment of wrong views, to the attainment of the first ground, (where,) quite secluded from sense desires, secluded from unwholesome things, having thinking, reflection, and the happiness and rapture born of seclusion, he dwells, having attained the first absorption, with difficulty in practice and slow deepening of knowledge, and he contemplates (the nature of) the body in the body, and that which at that time is mindfulness, recollection, Right Mindfulness, the Mindfulness factor of Complete Awakening, the Path factor, and what belongs to the Path: this is said to be ‘attending to mindfulness.’

PTS cs 378 And how does a monk dwell contemplating (the nature of) things in (various) things?

Here a monk, at whatever time, develops the supermundane absorption, which leads out, which goes to decrease (of rebirth), to abandonment of wrong views, to the attainment of the first ground, (where,) quite secluded from sense desires, secluded from unwholesome things, having thinking, reflection, and the happiness and rapture born of seclusion, he dwells, having attained the first absorption, with difficulty in practice and slow deepening of knowledge, and he contemplates (the nature of) things in (various) things, and that which at that time is mindfulness, recollection, Right Mindfulness, the Mindfulness factor of Complete Awakening, the Path factor, and what belongs to the Path: this is said to be ‘attending to mindfulness.’

https://suttacentral.net/vb7/en/anandajoti
If the mind is one-pointed in the 1st jhana & only aware of five factors within one sphere of consciousness, how, according to Abhidhammists, does it practise kayanupassana?

Thanks :thanks:
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SarathW
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Re: Vibhanga: How is kayanupassana practised in 1st jhana ???

Post by SarathW »

Hi DD
You have to be familiar with the Javana process (17 thought moments) of Jhana, before you understand this.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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DooDoot
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Re: Vibhanga: How is kayanupassana practised in 1st jhana ???

Post by DooDoot »

SarathW wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 3:35 am Hi DD
You have to be familiar with the Javana process (17 thought moments) of Jhana, before you understand this.
Hi SarathW
You have to be able to explain the Javana process (17 thought moments) of Jhana, before you post about this. :thanks:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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SarathW
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Re: Vibhanga: How is kayanupassana practised in 1st jhana ???

Post by SarathW »

DooDoot wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 5:11 am
SarathW wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 3:35 am Hi DD
You have to be familiar with the Javana process (17 thought moments) of Jhana, before you understand this.
Hi SarathW
You have to be able to explain the Javana process (17 thought moments) of Jhana, before you post about this. :thanks:
This is a complex topic and it is clearly explained in Abhidhamma Sangatha by Narada and or perhaps in Bhikku Bodhi's books.

http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/abhidhamma.pdf
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
auto
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Re: Vibhanga: How is kayanupassana practised in 1st jhana ???

Post by auto »

Just a comment,

You can hear sound, but you can't say these sounds exist until the sound has interrupted the life-continuum, causing you to not identify with those sounds.
https://suttacentral.net/sn35.136/en/sujato wrote: “Sights, sounds, tastes, smells,
“Rūpā saddā rasā gandhā,
touches and thoughts, the lot of them—
phassā dhammā ca kevalā;
they’re likable, desirable, and pleasurable
Iṭṭhā kantā manāpā ca,
as long as you can say that they exist.
yāvatatthīti vuccati.

In all the world with its gods,
Sadevakassa lokassa,
this is reckoned as happiness.
ete vo sukhasammatā;
And where they cease
Yattha cete nirujjhanti,
this is reckoned as suffering.
taṁ tesaṁ dukkhasammataṁ.

The noble ones have seen that happiness
Sukhaṁ diṭṭhamariyebhi,
Variant: Sukhaṁ → sukhanti (bj); sukhaṁ ca (sya-all)
is the cessation of identity.
sakkāyassa nirodhanaṁ;
Those who see
Paccanīkamidaṁ hoti,
contradict the whole world.
sabbalokena passataṁ.
The actual seeing is in conformity with the truth: As what is done by craving is also done by you when the life-continuum is interrupted.
Akin to,
In order to say exist, you have to apply the mind on an object by issuing a name-concept, this name concept dissolves into a particular rupa which then is focused on and thus will be known as existing albeit without the notion of existence(identity).
That all is done by a craving if concentration is weak, there won't be interruption in life-continuum when sound occurs.
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