Do these six points have direct quotes in the abhidhamma?

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waryoffolly
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Do these six points have direct quotes in the abhidhamma?

Post by waryoffolly »

Hi all,

In a different thread I asked retrofuturist the following:
waryoffolly wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 11:20 pm Hi Paul,

Can you (or anyone else) point me to quotes from the abhidhamma pitaka (not the commentaries) that substantiate each of the claims in your original post? It would strengthen your argument dramatically to do so. I’m also curious.

I don’t know much myself about the abhidhamma pitaka, but would like to see direct quotes for each of the following points:
Common Abhidhamma Argument #1 - Mentality and materiality are paramattha dhammas (i.e. ultimate dhammas)

Common Abhidhamma Argument #2 - Dhammas exist

Common Abhidhamma Argument #3 - Dhammas exist, independent of observation

Common Abhidhamma Argument #4 - Dhammas exist and then do not-exist with great rapidity, faster than a flash of lightning

Common Abhidhamma Argument #5 - Concepts are not dhammas (phenomena)

Common Abhidhamma Argument #6 - It is important to understand the different classifications for dhammas and their relations, as outlined in the Abhidhamma
Are they actually present in the abhidhamma pitaka itself which your criticisms are focusing on? I’d really prefer direct quotes if you have them, rather than just quoting an expert. I remember Geoff claimed to have found a quote for momentariness a long time ago in the abhidhamma pitaka, but I wasn’t convinced by it at the time.

My apologies if this has already been addressed (ie direct quotes substantiating each claim) earlier in this long thread. Please link me to it if so.

The Patisambhidamagga for example actually refutes sabhava if I’m remembering correctly. (It’s not in the abhidhamma pitaka, but as you say it is definitely abhidhamma for all practical purposes).

Best,
waryoffolly
Retrofuturist suggested I direct my questions here instead. Is anyone aware of direct quotes from the tipitaka supporting each of these claims?
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Re: Do these six points have direct quotes in the abhidhamma?

Post by waryoffolly »

I remember Geoff claimed to have found a quote for momentariness a long time ago in the abhidhamma pitaka, but I wasn’t convinced by it at the time.
It seems I misremembered Geoff’s post. Below he states that momentariness is not found in the abhidhamma pitaka:
Nyana wrote: Mon Dec 03, 2012 4:50 am
retrofuturist wrote:In asking a similar question once I was advised that it's the commentaries only, as distinct from the Abhidhamma Pitaka.
Yes, the theory of momentariness is absent from the Abhidhammapiṭaka. David Kalupahana, Buddhist Philosophy: A Historical Analysis:
  • It is significant that the Abhidhamma pitaka of the Theravadins makes no mention of either the theory of atoms or the theory of moments. They are certainly not found in either the Pali Nikayas or the Chinese Agamas.
Buddhaghosa seems to have acknowledged this as well. Kalupahana continues:
  • In his commentary on the Dhammasangani, Buddhaghosa makes a very important remark regarding the theory of moments. He says: "Herein, the continued present (santatipaccuppanna) finds mention in the commentaries (atthakatha); the enduring or long present (addhapaccuppanna) in the discourses (sutta). Some say that the thought existing in the momentary present (khanapaccuppanna) becomes the object of telepathic insight" (DhsA, p. 421). According to this statement, it was 'some people' (keci) who spoke about the momentary present; it was found neither in the discourses nor in the commentaries preserved at the Mahavihara which Buddhaghosa was using for his own commentaries in Pali.
Of course, this hasn't stopped people from reading a theory of momentariness into the Abhidhammapiṭaka.
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Re: Do these six points have direct quotes in the abhidhamma?

Post by SarathW »

momentariness
:goodpost:
Good OP question and waiting to see the answers.
By the way, is this momentariness mentioned is referring to 17 thought moments?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
waryoffolly
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Re: Do these six points have direct quotes in the abhidhamma?

Post by waryoffolly »

SarathW wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 2:12 am
momentariness
:goodpost:
Good OP question and waiting to see the answers.
By the way, is this momentariness mentioned is referring to 17 thought moments?
I don’t understand enough about the 17 thought moments to answer. My guess is that such an idea depends on momentariness theory, but we’ll have to wait for someone with more knowledge to comment.
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Re: Do these six points have direct quotes in the abhidhamma?

Post by waryoffolly »

Another quote from Nyana/Geoff on this topic:
Hi Eric,

You are right. The term sabhāva is not ever used in the Abhidhammapiṭaka. It occurs in the Paṭisambhidāmagga, where a long list of dhamma-s are all said to be empty of sabhāva. And the only Abhidhammapiṭaka occurrence of the term paramattha in reference to conditioned dhamma-s is in the Kathāvatthu.
From here: viewtopic.php?p=73971#p73971

Also later on Geoff says:
Nyana wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2010 11:08 am There are a few short references to the theory of momentariness in the main commentaries. Spk ii 266:
  • Hence the Ancients said: ‘Arising was called birth and dissolution referred to passing away. Change referred to aging and endurance to maintenance.’

    Thus each khandha has three characteristic marks called arising, aging and dissolution, of which it is said in the passage (A I 152): ‘These are, monks, the three conditioned characteristic marks of the conditioned [khandha].’

    Tenāhu porāṇā uppādo jāti akkhāto bhaṅgo vutto vayoti ca aññathattaṃ jarā vuttā ṭhitī ca anupālanā ti evaṃ ekekassa khandhassa uppādajarābhaṅgasaṅkhātāni tīṇi lakkhaṇānī ti.
And Mp ii 252:
  • Origination is said to appear at the origination moments, aging at the subsistence moments and dissolution at the destruction moments.

    Uppādo ti jāti vayo ti bhedo ṭhitassa aññathattaṃ nāma jarā … uppādādayo saṅkhatalakkhaṇā nāma tesu uppādakkaṇe uppādo thānakkaṇe jarā bhedakkhaṇe vayo.
Also, Ācariya Ānanda (medieval period VbhAA.) cites the Abhidhamma Yamaka as canonical support for his understanding of radical momentariness. The Yamaka does use the terms arising moment (uppādakkhaṇa) and dissolution moment (bhaṅgakkhaṇa), even if these terms do not necessarily entail interpreting khaṇa as radical momentariness in the Yamaka itself.

All the best,

Geoff
If he’s correct, then even the atthakatha only has a few mentions of momentariness (and atthkatha is not a single voice as far as I can tell, so the presence of momentariness in one or two places is not equivalent to “consensus of the atthakatha”). Of the references he lists, it seems to me that only Mp ii 252 is explicit about momentariness. If he’s right then it would be very surprising to see momentariness in the abhidhamma pitaka-why wouldn’t the commentary (ie atthakatha) not have mentioned it more often otherwise?

Hopefully someone else will chime in later to avoid this just becoming a bunch of quotes from Geoff 😂. It would also be good to hunt down these two exact quotes he mentioned in the first quote of his above.

Also, is there a list of pali words which I could search in DPR to try and find quotes about each of the points in the OP? For example, it looks like “sabhava” would be one such word.
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Re: Do these six points have direct quotes in the abhidhamma?

Post by DooDoot »

waryoffolly wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 3:52 am
And the only Abhidhammapiṭaka occurrence of the term paramattha in reference to conditioned dhamma-s is in the Kathāvatthu.
The term used is saccikaṭṭhaparamatthena (real and ultimate facts)
Saccika, (adj.) (cp. Sk. satyaka) real, true
Attha means meaning, essence, intrinsic existence.
paramattha : (m.) the highest ideal; truth in the ultimate sense.
Theravādin: Acknowledge the refutation: If the person and material quality (rūpaṁ) be each known in the sense of real and ultimate facts (saccikaṭṭhaparamatthena), then indeed, good sir, you should also have admitted that they are distinct things. You are wrong to admit the former proposition and not the latter. If the latter cannot be admitted, neither should the former be affirmed. To say that the person and material quality are both known in the sense of real and ultimate facts, but that they are not mutually distinct things, is false.

The same form of controversy is then pursued concerning fifty-five other real and ultimate facts, or aspects of them, namely:
  • feeling
    perception
    coefficients (sankhāras)
    consciousness
    the organ of sight
    the organ of hearing
    the organ of smell
    the organ of taste
    the organ of touch
    visible object
    sound
    odour
    taste
    tangible object
    mind (sensus communis)
    cognizable object
    eye as subjective element
    ear, nose, tongue, body as subjective element
    sights, sounds, odours, tastes, touches as objective element
    visual, auditory, olfactory, gustatory, tactile cognition as subjective element
    mind as subjective element
    mind-cognizing as subjective element
    cognizables as objective element
    the eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, mind as controlling power
    female sex, male sex, life as controlling power
    pleasure, pain, joy, grief, hedonic indifference as controlling power
    the controlling powers: faith, energy, mindfulness, concentration, understanding
    the controlling powers known as (i.) the thought, “I shall come to know the unknown”, (ii.) the coming to know, (iii.) the having known
No ce pana vattabbe— “aññaṁ rūpaṁ añño puggalo”ti, no ca vata re vattabbe— “puggalo upalabbhati saccikaṭṭhaparamatthena, rūpañca upalabbhati saccikaṭṭhaparamatthenā”ti. Yaṁ tattha vadesi— “vattabbe kho— ‘puggalo upalabbhati saccikaṭṭhaparamatthena, rūpañca upalabbhati saccikaṭṭhaparamatthena’, no ca vattabbe— ‘aññaṁ rūpaṁ añño puggalo’”ti micchā …pe….

Puggalo upalabbhati saccikaṭṭhaparamatthena, vedanā ca upalabbhati saccikaṭṭhaparamatthena …pe… saññā ca upalabbhati …pe… saṅkhārā ca upalabbhanti …pe… viññāṇañca upalabbhati saccikaṭṭhaparamatthenāti? Āmantā. Aññaṁ viññāṇaṁ añño puggaloti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe.

Ājānāhi niggahaṁ. Hañci puggalo upalabbhati saccikaṭṭhaparamatthena, viññāṇañca upalabbhati saccikaṭṭhaparamatthena, tena vata re vattabbe— “aññaṁ viññāṇaṁ añño puggalo”ti. Yaṁ tattha vadesi— “vattabbe kho— ‘puggalo upalabbhati saccikaṭṭhaparamatthena, viññāṇañca upalabbhati saccikaṭṭhaparamatthena’, no ca vattabbe— ‘aññaṁ viññāṇaṁ añño puggalo’”ti micchā.

No ce pana vattabbe— “aññaṁ viññāṇaṁ añño puggalo”ti, no ca vata re vattabbe— “puggalo upalabbhati saccikaṭṭhaparamatthena, viññāṇañca upalabbhati saccikaṭṭhaparamatthenā”ti. Yaṁ tattha vadesi— “vattabbe kho— ‘puggalo upalabbhati saccikaṭṭhaparamatthena, viññāṇañca upalabbhati saccikaṭṭhaparamatthena’, no ca vattabbe— ‘aññaṁ viññāṇaṁ añño puggalo’”ti micchā …pe….

Puggalo upalabbhati saccikaṭṭhaparamatthena, cakkhāyatanañca upalabbhati saccikaṭṭhaparamatthena …pe… sotāyatanañca upalabbhati … ghānāyatanañca upalabbhati … jivhāyatanañca upalabbhati … kāyāyatanañca upalabbhati … rūpāyatanañca upalabbhati … saddāyatanañca upalabbhati … gandhāyatanañca upalabbhati … rasāyatanañca upalabbhati … phoṭṭhabbāyatanañca upalabbhati … manāyatanañca upalabbhati … dhammāyatanañca upalabbhati saccikaṭṭhaparamatthena …pe….

Cakkhudhātu ca upalabbhati saccikaṭṭhaparamatthena …pe… sotadhātu ca upalabbhati … ghānadhātu ca upalabbhati … jivhādhātu ca upalabbhati … kāyadhātu ca upalabbhati … rūpadhātu ca upalabbhati … saddadhātu ca upalabbhati … gandhadhātu ca upalabbhati … rasadhātu ca upalabbhati … phoṭṭhabbadhātu ca upalabbhati … cakkhuviññāṇadhātu ca upalabbhati … sotaviññāṇadhātu ca upalabbhati … ghānaviññāṇadhātu ca upalabbhati … jivhāviññāṇadhātu ca upalabbhati … kāyaviññāṇadhātu ca upalabbhati … manodhātu ca upalabbhati … manoviññāṇadhātu ca upalabbhati … dhammadhātu ca upalabbhati saccikaṭṭhaparamatthena …pe….

Cakkhundriyañca upalabbhati saccikaṭṭhaparamatthena …pe… sotindriyañca upalabbhati … ghānindriyañca upalabbhati … jivhindriyañca upalabbhati … kāyindriyañca upalabbhati … manindriyañca upalabbhati … jīvitindriyañca upalabbhati … itthindriyañca upalabbhati … purisindriyañca upalabbhati … sukhindriyañca upalabbhati … dukkhindriyañca upalabbhati … somanassindriyañca upalabbhati … domanassindriyañca upalabbhati … upekkhindriyañca upalabbhati … saddhindriyañca upalabbhati … vīriyindriyañca upalabbhati … satindriyañca upalabbhati … samādhindriyañca upalabbhati … paññindriyañca upalabbhati … anaññātaññassāmītindriyañca upalabbhati … aññindriyañca upalabbhati … aññātāvindriyañca upalabbhati saccikaṭṭhaparamatthenāti? Variant: aññindriyañca → aññātāvindriyañca (si, sya-all)Āmantā. Aññaṁ aññātāvindriyaṁ añño puggaloti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe.

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Re: Do these six points have direct quotes in the abhidhamma?

Post by mikenz66 »

I quoted some comments from Ven Dhammanando on the other thread:
mikenz66 wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 5:49 am
Dhammanando wrote: Mon May 18, 2020 1:36 am
zan wrote: Sun May 17, 2020 6:01 pmAlso, do you know where the four paramattha dhammas are mentioned in the Abhidhamma Pitaka?
They are not mentioned by name in the Abhidhamma Piṭaka. Rather, the catuparamatthadhamma scheme is how the commentaries construe the material in the Abhidhamma Piṭaka as being organised.
Dhammanando wrote: Tue May 19, 2020 3:05 am ... I don't get the impression that the Abhidhamma Piṭaka itself had much influence on the general commentarial conception of the nature of a dhamma. To the extent that their claims about the nature of a dhamma are inferential ones, the commentators more often cite passages from the Suttanta Piṭaka, in particular the Khandha and Saḷāyatana-vaggas of the SN, and the Paṭisambhidāmagga, Nettippakaraṇa, Niddesa and Milindapañha of the KN.
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Re: Do these six points have direct quotes in the abhidhamma?

Post by DooDoot »

waryoffolly wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 11:57 pm Common Abhidhamma Argument #1 - Mentality and materiality are paramattha dhammas (i.e. ultimate dhammas)

Common Abhidhamma Argument #2 - Dhammas exist
I think the above as being Abhidhamma teachings were confirmed in my previous post; where saccikaṭṭhaparamatthena includes rupa and the constituents of nama.
Common Abhidhamma Argument #3 - Dhammas exist, independent of observation
I think the above is confirmed here as Abhidhamma teachings because the Abhidhamma does not refute what the Buddha taught in AN 3.136 and SN 12.20 about the Dhamma Law existing independent of observation.
Common Abhidhamma Argument #5 - Concepts are not dhammas (phenomena)
My previous post includes Abhidhamma including "dhammāyatanañca" therefore this appears to include concepts as dhammas (i.e. mental objects). :smile:
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Re: Do these six points have direct quotes in the abhidhamma?

Post by Assaji »

waryoffolly wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 11:57 pm Is anyone aware of direct quotes from the tipitaka supporting each of these claims?
Apparently, Retro referred to the medieval Abhidhamma. I don't think these points are presented in the Abhidhamma Piṭaka.
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Re: Do these six points have direct quotes in the abhidhamma?

Post by Ceisiwr »

waryoffolly wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 11:57 pm Hi all,

In a different thread I asked retrofuturist the following:
waryoffolly wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 11:20 pm Hi Paul,

Can you (or anyone else) point me to quotes from the abhidhamma pitaka (not the commentaries) that substantiate each of the claims in your original post? It would strengthen your argument dramatically to do so. I’m also curious.

I don’t know much myself about the abhidhamma pitaka, but would like to see direct quotes for each of the following points:
Common Abhidhamma Argument #1 - Mentality and materiality are paramattha dhammas (i.e. ultimate dhammas)

Common Abhidhamma Argument #2 - Dhammas exist

Common Abhidhamma Argument #3 - Dhammas exist, independent of observation

Common Abhidhamma Argument #4 - Dhammas exist and then do not-exist with great rapidity, faster than a flash of lightning

Common Abhidhamma Argument #5 - Concepts are not dhammas (phenomena)

Common Abhidhamma Argument #6 - It is important to understand the different classifications for dhammas and their relations, as outlined in the Abhidhamma
Are they actually present in the abhidhamma pitaka itself which your criticisms are focusing on? I’d really prefer direct quotes if you have them, rather than just quoting an expert. I remember Geoff claimed to have found a quote for momentariness a long time ago in the abhidhamma pitaka, but I wasn’t convinced by it at the time.

My apologies if this has already been addressed (ie direct quotes substantiating each claim) earlier in this long thread. Please link me to it if so.

The Patisambhidamagga for example actually refutes sabhava if I’m remembering correctly. (It’s not in the abhidhamma pitaka, but as you say it is definitely abhidhamma for all practical purposes).

Best,
waryoffolly
Retrofuturist suggested I direct my questions here instead. Is anyone aware of direct quotes from the tipitaka supporting each of these claims?
I would recommend reading "The Theravada Abhidhamma: Inquiry Into the Nature of Conditioned Reality" by Y. Karunadasa. You will find good answers to your questions there. You can get a copy for free here: https://www.bps.lk/olib/bp/bp439s_Karun ... dharma.pdf
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Re: Do these six points have direct quotes in the abhidhamma?

Post by waryoffolly »

Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 8:59 pm I would recommend reading "The Theravada Abhidhamma: Inquiry Into the Nature of Conditioned Reality" by Y. Karunadasa. You will find good answers to your questions there. You can get a copy for free here: https://www.bps.lk/olib/bp/bp439s_Karun ... dharma.pdf
Thanks, looks like this combined with Noa Ronkin’s “Early Buddhist Metaphysics” answers the questions in this thread (and my other recent thread) completely.

Noa Ronkin also wrote an encyclopedia entry here: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/abhidharma/

It’s a broader overview that covers many of these points for those who want a shorter read.
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Re: Do these six points have direct quotes in the abhidhamma?

Post by Ceisiwr »

waryoffolly wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 9:33 pm [Noa Ronkin’s “Early Buddhist Metaphysics
This is also good, although I disagree with some of her conclusions.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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