nama and rupa: sutta or abhidhamma definition?

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frank k
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nama and rupa: sutta or abhidhamma definition?

Post by frank k »

In the suttas, I've only seen nama defined this way, such as in SN 12.2:
https://lucid24.org/sn/sn12/sn12-002/in ... l#flink-12
♦ “katamañca, bhikkhave, nāma-rūpaṃ?
"And-what, monks, (is) name-and-form?
vedanā, saññā,
feelings, perceptions,
cetanā, phasso,
intentions, contacts,
manasi-kāro —
mental-activities -
idaṃ vuccati nāmaṃ.
This (is) called name.
cattāro ca mahā-bhūtā,
{And the} four ** great-elements,
catunnañca mahā-bhūtānaṃ upādāya-rūpaṃ.
{and the} four great-elements derived-forms,
idaṃ vuccati rūpaṃ.
that (is) called form.
But in Abhidhamma, they define nama as the 4 of the 5 aggregates minus rupa and including vinnana, which seriously contradicts the above.
How do you guys even know which definition of nama you're dealing with when you read canonical Abhidhamma?
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DooDoot
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Re: nama and rupa: sutta or abhidhamma definition?

Post by DooDoot »

The Vibhanga contains various definitions of nama, rupa and nama-rupa, which include:
Tattha katamaṁ viññāṇapaccayā nāmaṁ? Vedanākkhandho, saññākkhandho, saṅkhārakkhandho— idaṁ vuccati “viññāṇapaccayā nāmaṁ”.

Herein, what is ‘with consciousness as condition: mind?’ (There is) the feeling constituent, the perception constituent, the (volitional) processes constituent: this is said to be ‘with consciousness as condition: mind’.
Nāmapaccayā phassoti. Tattha katamaṁ nāmaṁ? Ṭhapetvā phassaṁ, vedanākkhandho saññākkhandho saṅkhārakkhandho viññāṇakkhandho— idaṁ vuccati “nāmaṁ”.

With mind as condition: contact’. Herein, what is ‘mind?’ Except for contact, (it is) the feeling constituent, the perception constituent, the (volitional) processes constituent, the consciousness constituent: this is said to be ‘mind’.
Tattha katamaṁ viññāṇapaccayā nāmarūpaṁ? Atthi nāmaṁ, atthi rūpaṁ. Tattha katamaṁ nāmaṁ? Vedanākkhandho, saññākkhandho, saṅkhārakkhandho— idaṁ vuccati “nāmaṁ”. Tattha katamaṁ rūpaṁ? Cakkhāyatanassa upacayo, sotāyatanassa upacayo, ghānāyatanassa upacayo, jivhāyatanassa upacayo, kāyāyatanassa upacayo, yaṁ vā panaññampi atthi rūpaṁ cittajaṁ cittahetukaṁ cittasamuṭṭhānaṁ— idaṁ vuccati “rūpaṁ”. Iti idañca nāmaṁ, idañca rūpaṁ. Idaṁ vuccati “viññāṇapaccayā nāmarūpaṁ”.

Nāmarūpapaccayā chaṭṭhāyatananti. Atthi nāmaṁ, atthi rūpaṁ. Tattha katamaṁ nāmaṁ? Vedanākkhandho, saññākkhandho, saṅkhārakkhandho— idaṁ vuccati “nāmaṁ”. Tattha katamaṁ rūpaṁ? Yaṁ rūpaṁ nissāya manoviññāṇadhātu vattati— idaṁ vuccati “rūpaṁ”. Iti idañca nāmaṁ, idañca rūpaṁ. Idaṁ vuccati “nāmarūpaṁ”.

Herein, what is ‘with consciousness as condition: mind and bodily form?’

There is mind, there is bodily form.

Herein, what is ‘mind?’

(There is) the feeling constituent, the perception constituent, the (volitional) processes constituent: this is said to be ‘mind’.

Herein, what is ‘bodily form?’

The accumulation (that produces) the eye sense sphere, the accumulation (that produces) the ear sense sphere, the accumulation (that produces) the nose sense sphere, the accumulation (that produces) the tongue sense sphere, the accumulation (that produces) the body sense sphere, or whatever other bodily form there is born of mind, rooted in mind, originating in mind: this is said to be ‘bodily form’.

Thus, this is mind and this is bodily form.

This is said to be ‘with consciousness as condition: mind and bodily form’.

‘With mind and bodily form as condition: the sixth sense sphere’.

There is mind, there is bodily form.

Herein, what is ‘mind?’

(There is) the feeling constituent, the perception constituent, the (volitional) processes constituent: this is said to be ‘mind’.

Herein, what is ‘bodily form?’

That bodily form dependent on which mind-consciousness element exists: this is said to be ‘bodily form’.

Thus, this is mind and this is bodily form.

This is said to be ‘with consciousness as condition: mind and bodily form’.

https://suttacentral.net/vb6/en/anandajoti
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Re: nama and rupa: sutta or abhidhamma definition?

Post by DooDoot »

DooDoot wrote: Sat Jun 26, 2021 9:27 pm The Vibhanga contains various definitions of nama, rupa and nama-rupa, which include:
Also, it appears at least the Vibhanga does not refer to the Brahmanistic definition of nama-rupa as found in DN 15, DN 11, MN 49, SN 7.6, etc.

DN 15 is particularly interesting here. Could the Abhidhamma be older than DN 15? :shock:
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Re: nama and rupa: sutta or abhidhamma definition?

Post by auto »

DooDoot wrote: Sat Jun 26, 2021 9:27 pm The Vibhanga contains various definitions of nama, rupa and nama-rupa, which include:
it can be said 'grows disillusioned with namarupa'?
https://suttacentral.net/sn22.77/en/sujato wrote: Seeing this, a learned noble disciple grows disillusioned with form, feeling, perception, choices, and consciousness.
Evaṁ passaṁ, bhikkhave, sutavā ariyasāvako rūpasmimpi nibbindati, vedanāyapi … saññāyapi … saṅkhāresupi … viññāṇasmimpi nibbindati.
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Gwi
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Re: nama and rupa: sutta or abhidhamma definition?

Post by Gwi »

frank k wrote: Sat Jun 26, 2021 4:23 pm In the suttas, I've only seen nama defined this way, such as in SN 12.2:
https://lucid24.org/sn/sn12/sn12-002/in ... l#flink-12
♦ “katamañca, bhikkhave, nāma-rūpaṃ?
"And-what, monks, (is) name-and-form?
vedanā, saññā,
feelings, perceptions,
cetanā, phasso,
intentions, contacts,
manasi-kāro —
mental-activities -
idaṃ vuccati nāmaṃ.
This (is) called name.
cattāro ca mahā-bhūtā,
{And the} four ** great-elements,
catunnañca mahā-bhūtānaṃ upādāya-rūpaṃ.
{and the} four great-elements derived-forms,
idaṃ vuccati rūpaṃ.
that (is) called form.
But in Abhidhamma, they define nama as the 4 of the 5 aggregates minus rupa and including vinnana, which seriously contradicts the above.
How do you guys even know which definition of nama you're dealing with when you read canonical Abhidhamma?
It is same, no "viňňāṇå" in Abhidhammå
That because "viňňāṇahetukå" produce nāmarūpå.
But, viňňāṇå is nāmå.

Rūpå = 4 dhātū + 5 senses and their objects (10) = 14
Mind explained separately (Suttå n Abhidhammå).
Thats why The Buddhå using nāmarūpå coz
"Mind" between mental and physical.

And in Abhidhammå like this:
viňňāṇå --> nāmarūpå --> mind --> 5 senses

Suttå
viňňāṇå --> mental and physical --> 6 sense bases

This is same.
Bahagia Tidak Harus Selalu Bersama

Dhammapadå 370
"Tinggalkanlah 5 (belantara) dan patahkan 5 (belenggu rendah),
Serta kembangkan 5 potensi (4 iddhipādā + 1 ussoḷhi).
Bhikkhu yang telah menaklukkan 5 kungkungan (belenggu tinggi),
Lebih layak disebut 'orang yang telah mengarungi air baih (saṃsārå)'."
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Re: nama and rupa: sutta or abhidhamma definition?

Post by Ontheway »

Gwi wrote: Thu Sep 30, 2021 3:32 am
frank k wrote: Sat Jun 26, 2021 4:23 pm In the suttas, I've only seen nama defined this way, such as in SN 12.2:
https://lucid24.org/sn/sn12/sn12-002/in ... l#flink-12
♦ “katamañca, bhikkhave, nāma-rūpaṃ?
"And-what, monks, (is) name-and-form?
vedanā, saññā,
feelings, perceptions,
cetanā, phasso,
intentions, contacts,
manasi-kāro —
mental-activities -
idaṃ vuccati nāmaṃ.
This (is) called name.
cattāro ca mahā-bhūtā,
{And the} four ** great-elements,
catunnañca mahā-bhūtānaṃ upādāya-rūpaṃ.
{and the} four great-elements derived-forms,
idaṃ vuccati rūpaṃ.
that (is) called form.
But in Abhidhamma, they define nama as the 4 of the 5 aggregates minus rupa and including vinnana, which seriously contradicts the above.
How do you guys even know which definition of nama you're dealing with when you read canonical Abhidhamma?
It is same, no "viňňāṇå" in Abhidhammå
That because "viňňāṇahetukå" produce nāmarūpå.
But, viňňāṇå is nāmå.

Rūpå = 4 dhātū + 5 senses and their objects (10) = 14
Mind explained separately (Suttå n Abhidhammå).
Thats why The Buddhå using nāmarūpå coz
"Mind" between mental and physical.

And in Abhidhammå like this:
viňňāṇå --> nāmarūpå --> mind --> 5 senses

Suttå
viňňāṇå --> mental and physical --> 6 sense bases

This is same.
:goodpost: I agree with your findings too.

From my reading is the same too.

Even in Visuddhimagga, the Nama and Rupa were well defined.

Nama: Vedana, Sanna, Sankhara
Rupa: Main Four Elements (4 types) + derived materiality (24 types)

Even in the Paticca Samuppada exposition, the Vinnana part was coming from Patisandhi Citta (or described in the Sutta as 'seed'), then from this Vinnana give rise to Namarupa, and then give rise to Salayatana.

Vinnana paccaya Nama-Rupa paccaya Salayatana

:reading:
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

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frank k
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Re: nama and rupa: sutta or abhidhamma definition?

Post by frank k »

Gwi wrote: Thu Sep 30, 2021 3:32 am ...
Thanks for the explanation and I'll take your word for it. I made the mistake of not saving the link of the source I read that made me think Abhidhamma was including vinanna being included under 'nama' rather than separated from it.
www.lucid24.org/sted : ☸Lucid24.org🐘 STED definitions
www.audtip.org/audtip: 🎙️🔊Audio Tales in Pāli: ☸Dharma and Vinaya in many languages
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