Ākāsa-Dhātu

[Coëmgenu]

Last I remember Vasubandu completely rejected space.

Where do you remember reading such a thing and what does it mean for you that Ven Vasubandhu supposedly "completely rejected space?"

I don't think he "completely rejected space," being himself an Ābhidharmika.

[Coëmgenu]

Yes, so the only mention I can find to ākāśa in the writings of Vasubandhu is as a dhātu and an unconditioned dharma. Now, maybe my search is not exhaustive, but as of now it seems there has been a wrong claim made.

[Ceisiwr]

I don't think he "completely rejected space," being himself an Ābhidharmika.

A lot of people don’t seem to realise that he was one, that he never stopped being one.

[Coëmgenu]

Him and his brother, Ven Asaṃga, as well as their theorized master, Ven Maitreyanātha, are responsible for what the Tibetans call "Higher Abhidharma." Why is it "higher?" The Mahāyānikas have good green which the Śrāvakas lack.

I can only assume that the Sanskrit for "Higher Abhidharma" is "Abhyabhidharma."

The last two sentences were jokes. I need to write this because many posters can't tell when I make one.

[Ceisiwr]

The Mahāyānikas have good green which the Śrāvakas lack.

[SarathW]

Oh well, i posted two Abhidhamma quotes but looks like no one is interested.

Your two quotations are excellent. So what is your reply to last comments by the opposition to Theravadin?
I tend to agree with Thracadin, but it appears Terabadun reject space as conditioned or unconditioned. Perhaps the idea of space is the same as Pink Elephant?

[Coëmgenu]

Since he asks so nicely: IMO, the first is directly relevant and warranted posting here regardless if anyone commented directly, and the second is tangential, but the tangential here is also related. The Dharmaguptakas have as the 6th unconditioned dharma in their matrix of the unconditioned "ākāśānantyāyatanajñāna." That refers specifically to knowledge of the āyatana of endless space, the first of the ārūpyasamāpattis, called I think "arūpasamāpattis" in Pāli. The first ārūpyasamāpatti is being discussed in the second Kathāvatthu quote, not "space itself"/ākāsa.

[retrofuturist]

Greetings,

In Suttaworld, the term conditioned (sankhata) appears to always signify something mentally constructed. Mostly, but not exclusively "conditioned" by avijja. If there was no avijja there would simply be thusness (tathata) and suddhaṃ saṅkhārasantatiṃ.

Whilst in Suttaworld, Nibbana is the only phenomena regarded as unconditioned, and again, it's something mentally unconstructed.

Does that change in Abhidhammaworld? Is the breadth of application for what it means to be sankhata larger or different? To me it seems difficult to relate to talk of things which are not mentally originated (such as space) as being sankhata or asankhata, unless we are talking about some kind of mentally fabricated experience of space, rather than space itself.

The Sutta in the OP would suggest discussion of experience, since it discussed the three characteristics of sankhata-dhammas. But that seems different to the one way "debate" from the Points Of Controversy kindly shared by DooDoot earlier, which doesn't seem to be treating ākāsa-dhātu as an experience. In such a circumstance, I do not see (looking from the aforementioned Suttaworld view) how it's justifiably classified as either sankhata or asankhata. It would appear rather, to be "beyond range", and by virtue of not being sankhata, not being subject to the characteristics of sankhata-dhammas either. As such, I am unsure why the Theravadin in the PoC is so insistent it must be one or the other. Is this simply a compulsion to categorise or is there some wisdom or practical applicability that can be derived from the Elder's conclusion?

I don't particularly want this to be a point of controversy, but if anyone can give some straight up answers to the above queries without getting triggered, it would be appreciated, and as I see it, directly pertinent to the topic.



Metta,
Paul.

[robertk]

I have an hour free so will add some posts on this.

Firstly:
from Nyanatiloka
https://www.budsas.org/ebud/bud-dict/dic3_a.htm

ākāsa: 'space', is, according to Com., of two kinds: 1. limited space (paricchinnākāsa or paricchedākāsa), 2. endless space (anantākāsa), i.e. cosmic space.

1. Limited space, under the name of ākāsa-dhātu (space element), belongs to derived corporeality (s. khandha, Summary I; Dhs 638) and to a sixfold classification of elements (s. dhātu; M 112, 115, 140). It is also an object of kasiṇa (q.v.) meditation. It is defined as follows: "The space element has the characteristic of delimiting matter. Its function is to indicate the boundaries of matter. It is manifested as the confines of matter; or its manifestation consists in being untouched (by the 4 great elements), and in holes and apertures. Its proximate cause is the matter delimited. It is on account of the space element that one can say of material things delimited that 'this is above. below, around that' " (Vis.M. XIV, 63).

2. Endless space is called in Aṭṭhasālinī, ajatākāsa, 'unentangled', i.e. unobstructed or empty space. It is the object of the first immaterial absorption (s. jhāna), the sphere of boundless space (ākāsānañcāyatana). According to Abhidhamma philosophy, endless space has no objective reality (being purely conceptual), which is indicated by the fact that it is not included in the triad of the wholesome (kusala-tika), which comprises the entire reality. Later Buddhist schools have regarded it as one of several unconditioned or uncreated states (asaṅkhatadhamma) - a view that is rejected in Kath. (s. Guide. p. 70). Theravāda Buddhism recognizes only Nibbāna as an unconditioned element (asaṅkhata-dhātu: s. Dhs. 1084).

[robertk]

Now an old post from Nina Van Gorkom where she explained some aspects of space:

https://groups.io/g/dsg/message/28658

Nina: Sometimes we have to go back to the beginning so that we, in the middle
of studying details, do not lose the big picture!
Rupa is among the three conditioned paramattha dhammas. This means: it
arises from the appropriate conditions and then it falls away. There are
several conditioning factors that come together so that a particular dhamma
arises. But since these conditions do not last and fall apart, also the
conditioned dhamma has to fall away again. Rupas are listed as 28 kinds.
That means, they are not concepts or productions of the mind.They are
included in rupakkhandha. Except the four rupas which are characteristics
inherent in rupa, they arise and fall away. Also space arises and falls away
together with the groups of rupa it surrounds.

H: But it is not Nipphanna Rupa. It is
Anipphanna Rupa.
Nina: Yes.
H:That means space is not conditioned by Kamma, Citta,
Utu, and Ahara.
N: Let me repeat what I wrote before:
< Space is considered to originate from the four factors. Still, it is
called unproduced and asabhava: it merely functions as delimiting the groups
of rupa. Though not concrete matter (thus unproduced, anipphanna, only in
this sense), it has a characteristic and it is real. >
Space is rupa paramattha, it is not nibbana paramattha, the unconditioned
element.
Now we have the word nipphanna, translated as produced. This creates
confusion. The dictionary (PED) says: from nippajjati or nipphajjati:
nipphanna: produced, accomplished, determined, conditioned. We should not
confuse this term with: originated from: samu.t.thaana: origination. Thus
now we have: space, is anipphanna rupa, not 'determined', meaning, not
concrete matter.
And it is conditioned, it originates from one of the four factors. It arises
and falls away together with the groups (kalapas) originating from these
factors.
This is all from the Visuddhimagga (XVIII, 13) and later on when we come to
it, I like to study quietly the Tiika which also explains about the term
nipphanna.
H: If there is no Mahabhuta Rupa then there is no space.
But when there are Mahabhuta Rupa, there exists space.
Nina: Yes. Space is a derived rupa, and thus it is dependent on the four Great
Elements, these are its foundation.
H:Time and space
are not real existence.
Nina: The rupa space is real, it is rupa paramattha dhamma or rupa kkhandha as
you also agree.
Usually people think only of outer space, and then there is the danger that
they go way out.
Time is a concept, it is not rupa paramattha dhamma. But, it still indicates
relations as to the duration of rupa and the duration of nama. Ven.
Nyanaponika describes very carefully the many aspects of time in his Abh
Studies. I find this a good book, very thorough.
*Originating from* is very intricate. Let me add a little from the Expositor
(Atthasalini, II, 342):
< In the Table of Contects we have matter (1) born of kamma, (2) caused by
kamma, (3) originating in the caloric order [N: the element of heat], caused
by kamma, (4) originating in nutriment, (5) caused by nutriment, etc, etc.
This is just to show how many factors are involved, different conditions
operating at the same time. Where is a self or person who takes these all in
his hands?

[robertk]

More from Nina Van Gorkom:
https://groups.io/g/dsg/message/28739

Nina: I think that you and I are speaking about different kinds of space. You
look up at the sky, thinking of a concept. When thinking of the concept
space one may find that very important and great. It invites to clinging. I
speak about that very small, insignificant rupa that, together with the
other 27 rupas is classified in the Abhidhamma as rupakkhandha and performs
the function of delimiting the kalapas. It is not worth clinging to, it is
impermanent and non-self.
The Commentaries explain in conventional terms that the manifestation of
space are cavities in the body, such as ear cavity, but we should not be led
astray and we should take this in the right sense. Their intention was
explaining in understandable language what space is: a reality.

Howard: Htoo, doesn't this strike you as a bit ironic, with the space that is
experienced being "unreal," but the allegedly "real" space being
unobservable?
Hardness that is real is actually observed! Sounds that are real are
actually
observed! But "real" space - that's the sort of space we *cannot* observe!!
(Something's wrooong here! )

Nina: Yes, something is wrong here.
Today we go again to Mahaaraahulovaadasutta.
The Buddha taught Rahula about the four Great Elements of earth, water, fire
and wind, and also about space.
We read in the Co:
<When he asked the Blessed One about Mindfulness of Breathing, why did the
Blessed One speak about the meditation subject of materiality?
He spoke so that he (Rahula) would abandon his attachment to materiality.
It must have occurred to him thus: ³Since attachment has arisen in Rahula on
account of his body, and the meditation subject on materiality was explained
to him before in brief, I shall now also make him dissect the body in
fortytwo ways and thus cause him to get rid of attachment that is dependent
on it and to attain the truth of Dhamma.²
Why did he then explain in detail the element of space?
In order to point out the derived material phenomena.
Before he had spoken about the four great Elements, not about the derived
physical phenomena.
Therefore, in order to point these out in that way, he explained in detail
the element of space.
He also made known the matter that is delimitated by the internal space {N:
space performing its function of delimitating].
³He proceeds to clarify matter that is delimitated by space.
The Guide explained this so that it was clear to him in that way.² >
After that he taught him to apply himself to the mental development similar
to earth, and similar to the other great Elements and space. We can admire
the structure of the sutta here: after the explanation about the Elements
the Buddha taught the application of this knowledge in daily life. The
Buddha said:
<³Apply yourself to the mental development that is like the earth, Rahula,
For when you apply yourself to the mental development that is like the
earth, Rahula, agreeable and disagreeable impressions that have arisen,
impinging on
the mind will not persist.²>
He taught the same about mental development like water, fire, wind and
space.
<For when you apply yourself to the mental development that is like the
earth, Rahula,
agreeable and disagreeable impressions that have arisen, will not take a
lasting hold on the mind.>The same about the other Great Elements and space.
Would the Buddha teach Rahula merely a concept of space? He taught
realities, rupakkhandha and the other khandhas. We have to understand the
deep meaning of his words. We read: <Just as, Rahula, space does not settle
anywhere,
likewise, Rahula, you should cultivate the mental development that is
like space.>
The goal is detachment.

[robertk]

more from nina van gorkom

Questioner: I was wondering in what sense space is impermanent, unsatisfactory, not
self. Is it so because space is actually 'edge', a characteristic of
matter?
Nina: Though it is not concrete matter and an asabhava rupa, it is bound up
with concrete matter since it delimits them. It delimits the groups
originated by kamma, citta, nutrition and temperature and therefore reckoned
as originated by these four factors. It arises and falls away with them. It
is also called an element, dhatu, space-element in the Expositor (II, 425).
And the Co to the Abh. Sangaha states:<an element in the sense that it is
lifeless>, meaning, it is not a living being. The Vis. gives the
characteristic, function, manifestation and proximate cause, as it does in
the case of all 28 rupas. It is rupa, thus, it has the three
characteristics. And see below, the suttas.
L: There is a slight discrepancy between the PTS (?) translation from MN
140 Nina gave and B. ~Nanamoli's:

PTS: "And what, monk, is the internal element of space? Whatever is
space, spacious, is internal, referable to an individual and derived
therefrom, such as the auditory and nasal orifices, the door of the
mouth..."

~N: "What is the internal space element? Whatever internally, belonging
to oneself, is space, spatial, and clung-to, that is, the holes of the
ears, the nostrils, the door of the mouth..."

Larry: The first one has "derived therefrom" and the second one has
"clung-to".
Nina: It is said: <Derived from an individual>, or, clung to (upadi.n.na):
namely, produced by kamma, but in a wider sense referring to all rupas of
the body. These two, derived from an individual, or, clung to, amount to the
same. They are called internal and individual.
Nina: B.B. has: <What is internally, belonging to oneself, is space, spatial,
and clung to, that is, the holes of the ears, the nostrils...> At the end of
this definition we read: <And that should be seen as it actually is with
proper wisdom thus: "This is not mine, this I am not, this is not myself.'>
Would this be said of a concept? It is rupa, an element, not a concept.
Going to the Pali of Mahaaraahulovaadasutta: ajjhattika: internal,
paccatta.m, belonging to oneself, but used figuratively of course. See the
end: they should be realized as non-self. Thus, as rupa, having the three
characteristics.
"And what, Rahula, is the space element? The space element may be
internal or external. And what, Rahula, is the internal space
element? That, internally, and individually, is space, void, and
clung to, namely: the cavity of the ear, the orifice of the nose, the
opening of the mouth, and whereby (one) swallows what is tasted,
chewed, drunk and eaten, and where (food) being tasted, chewed, drunk
and eaten remains, and whereby (food) being tasted, chewed, drunk and
eaten passes out of the body lower down, or whatever else internally,
and individually is space, void, sky, empty, an opening, hollow,
untouched by flesh and blood, and clung to. This, Rahula, is
called the internal space element. But that very internal space
element and that external space element are simply space element.
Thus "this is not mine, this I am not, this is not myself" is to be
seen with right wisdom just as it is. Having seen this with right
wisdom just as it is, the mind becomes dispassionate towards (and)
detaches (itself) from the space element."
Nina.

[robertk]

This is the Tika , subcommentary to the Visuddhimagga which Nina Van Gorkom translated:



Tiika:
Ruupaani paricchindati, saya.m vaa tehi paricchijjati,
It delimits material phenomena or it is itself delimited by them,

ruupaana.m vaa paricchedamatta.m ruupaparicchedo,
or it is just the delimitation of material phenomena, the materiality that
is delimitation,

ta.m lakkha.na.m etissaati ruupaparicchedalakkha.naa.
that is its characteristic, thus, that of delimiting matter.

Aya.m hi aakaasadhaatu ta.m ta.m ruupakalaapa.m paricchindantii viya hoti.
This is the element of space that is as it were delimiting each of the
groups of material phenomena.

Tenaaha ³ruupapariyantappakaasanarasaa²ti.
Therefore he said, ³its function is to display the boundary of matter².

Atthato pana yasmaa ruupaana.m paricchedamatta.m hutvaa gayhati, tasmaa
vutta.m ³ruupamariyaadapaccupa.t.thaanaa²ti.
With regard to its meaning, since it is apprehended as having been just the
separation of material phenomena, he said that its manifestation is the
confines of matter.

Yasmi.m kalaape bhuutaana.m paricchedo, teheva
asamphu.t.thabhaavapaccupa.t.thaanaa.
In which group there is the delimitation of the great Elements, its
manifestation is the state of being untouched by these.

Vijjamaanepi hi kalaapantarabhuutaana.m kalaapantarabhuutehi
samphu.t.thabhaave ta.mta.mbhuutavivittataa ruupapariyanto aakaasoti yesa.m
so paricchedo, tehi so asamphu.t.thova.
If contact occurs between one group of the great elements with another
group, space is the separation of each of them by delimiting materiality and
thus it is the delimitation of those elements by which it is itself also
untouched.

A~n~nathaa paricchinnataa na siyaa tesa.m bhuutaana.m byaapibhaavaapattito.
Otherwise there would be no delimiting of these great elements, but there
would be pervasion among them.

Abyaapitaa hi asamphu.t.thataa.
The state of not pervading is the state of being untouched.

Tenaaha bhagavaa ³asamphu.t.tha.m catuuhi mahaabhuutehii²ti (dha. sa. 637,
Therefore, the Blessed one said, ³untouched by the great Elements.²

Ka.n.nacchiddamukhavivaraadivasena ca chiddavivarabhaavapaccupa.t.thaanaa
vaa.
And because of the cavity in the ear, or the door of the mouth, and so on,
its manifestation is the state of cavities and apertures.

Yesa.m ruupaana.m paricchedo, tattheva tesa.m paricchedabhaavena labbhatiiti
vutta.m ³paricchinnaruupapada.t.thaanaa²ti.

Of which material phenomena it is the delimitation, there it is applied, and
thus he said, ³its proximate cause is matter delimited.²

³Yaaya paricchinnesuu²ti-aadinaa aakaasadhaatuyaa ta.mta.mkalaapaana.m
kalaapantarehi asa"nkarakaara.nata.m dasseti.
With the words, ³And it is on account of it that one can say of
material things delimited (that this is above, below, around, that²)he
taught with regard to the element of space that it is the cause for each of
the groups that they are not blended with each other.

English:
It delimits material phenomena or it is itself delimited by them,
or it is just the delimitation of material phenomena, the materiality that
is delimitation,
that is its characteristic, thus, that of delimiting matter.
This is the element of space that is as it were delimiting each of the
groups of material phenomena.
Therefore he said, ³its function is to display the boundary of matter².
With regard to its meaning, since it is apprehended as having been just the
separation of material phenomena, he said that its manifestation is the
confines of matter.
In which group there is the delimitation of the great Elements, its
manifestation is the state of being untouched by these.
If contact occurs between one group of the great elements with another
group, space is the separation of each of them by delimiting materiality and
thus it is the delimitation of those elements by which it is itself also
untouched.
Otherwise there would be no delimiting of these great elements, but there
would be pervasion among them.
The state of not pervading is the state of being untouched.
Therefore, the Blessed one said, ³untouched by the great Elements.²
And because of the cavity in the ear, or the door of the mouth, and so on,
its manifestation is the state of cavities and apertures.
Of which material phenomena it is the delimitation, there it is applied,
and thus he said, ³its proximate cause is matter delimited.²
With the words, ³And it is on account of it that one can say of
material things delimited (that this is above, below, around, that²), he
taught with regard to the element of space that it is the cause for each of
the groups that they are not blended with each other.

[robertk]

https://groups.io/g/dsg/message/140653
from nina van gorkom

"The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV, 63.

63. 16. The space element has the characteristic of delimiting matter.
Its function is to display the boundaries of matter. It is manifested as
the confines of matter; or it is manifested as untouchedness, as the
state of gaps and apertures (cf. Dhs. 638). Its proximate cause is the
matter delimited. And it is on account of it that one can say of
material things delimited that 'this is above, below, around, that'.

N: Several definitions of space: Vis XIV, 36, Tiika:
Dhammasangani, 638:
That which is space and belongs to space, is sky and belongs to sky, is vacuum and belongs to vacuum, and is not in contact with the four Great Phenomena.
The Expositor II (p. 425)
<...space is that which is not ‘scratched’, not scratched off, which is not possible to scratch, cut, or break... ‘Sky’ [in Pali agha] is that which is not struck (a-gha.m); not strikable is the meaning. Aghagata”m is the same. ‘Vacuum’ (vivara, opening) is in the sense of a hole; also vivaragata.m. By ‘untouched by the four great essentials’ the unentangled space-element untouched by these is stated...> (follows the definition).
N: There is unconditioned space and conditioned space. Here, in the context of ruupakkhandha only conditioned space is dealt with. Space that delimits the groups of ruupa (kalapas) is conditioned space and it is classified among the twentyeight kinds of ruupa. Without it the groups would not be distinct, they would permeate each other. Each of the groups of octads, nonads, decads etc. plays its own part, it is important that they are distinct. It performs its function, arising just for a moment and then gone. The decad of speech intimation (the inseparables, sound and speech intimation) arises at the appropriate time, and nobody can tell it to do so. Speech intimation has performed its function before we realize it. Space surrounds all these different groups.
*****
Though it is not concrete matter and an asabhava rupa, it is bound up with concrete matter since it delimits them. It delimits the groups originated by kamma, citta, nutrition and temperature and therefore reckoned as originated by these four factors. It arises and falls away with them. It is also called an element, dhaatu, space-element in the Expositor (II, 425). And the Co to the Abh. Sangaha states:<an element in the sense that it is lifeless>, meaning, it is not a living being. The Vis. gives the characteristic, function, manifestation and proximate cause, as it does in the case of all 28 rupas. It is ruupa, thus, it has the three characteristics.

[Ceisiwr]

https://groups.io/g/dsg/message/140653 The Vis. gives the characteristic, function, manifestation and proximate cause, as it does in the case of all 28 rupas. It is ruupa, thus, it has the three characteristics.

I’m in work at the moment so I can only give a brief reply, but if this space has the 3 marks then wouldn’t it be an ultimate reality? In his Compendium of Abhidhamma Ven. Bodhi seems to argue the opposite, with said space being conceptual.