Can Abhidhamma assist in my practice? How?

Discussion of Abhidhamma and related Commentaries
Mr. Seek
Posts: 582
Joined: Sun Oct 25, 2020 5:45 am

Can Abhidhamma assist in my practice? How?

Post by Mr. Seek »

As title says, please: if there's someone in front of you who is doubtful of the Abhidhamma, how would you go about convincing him that learning about the Abhidhamma will help in his practice? How will you advertise the Abhidhamma?

I'm asking this because I'm doubtful myself, have always been, but I think there might be a sliver of usefulness in the Abhidhamma, just like there mght be a sliver of usefulness in the Mahayana. So I'm open to learning about the topic, but I just need a little more convincing perhaps.

Note, "it's part of orthodox tradition" doesn't pass in my book as a valid reason to study something, anything.

I come in peace and would lke to hear as many positive replies as possible. Cheers!
User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 22383
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales

Re: Can Abhidhamma assist in my practice? How?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Mr. Seek wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 7:41 pm As title says, please: if there's someone in front of you who is doubtful of the Abhidhamma, how would you go about convincing him that learning about the Abhidhamma will help in his practice? How will you advertise the Abhidhamma?

I'm asking this because I'm doubtful myself, have always been, but I think there might be a sliver of usefulness in the Abhidhamma, just like there mght be a sliver of usefulness in the Mahayana. So I'm open to learning about the topic, but I just need a little more convincing perhaps.

Note, "it's part of orthodox tradition" doesn't pass in my book as a valid reason to study something, anything.

I come in peace and would lke to hear as many positive replies as possible. Cheers!
The Abhidhamma had two primary purposes. Firstly, to organise what was found in the suttas and to offer further clarifications. Secondly, to act as an aid to meditation.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
User avatar
samseva
Posts: 3045
Joined: Sat Jan 18, 2014 12:59 pm

Re: Can Abhidhamma assist in my practice? How?

Post by samseva »

Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 8:40 pm The Abhidhamma had two primary purposes. Firstly, to organise what was found in the suttas and to offer further clarifications. Secondly, to act as an aid to meditation.
I'm genuinely interested in knowing where all of the above is said. Could you post a reference? Is it from a Commentary, in the Abhidhamma itself?
User avatar
samseva
Posts: 3045
Joined: Sat Jan 18, 2014 12:59 pm

Re: Can Abhidhamma assist in my practice? How?

Post by samseva »

Mr. Seek wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 7:41 pm As title says, please: if there's someone in front of you who is doubtful of the Abhidhamma, how would you go about convincing him that learning about the Abhidhamma will help in his practice?
There is Abhidhamma material available online. Study some of Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation of the Abhidhammatthasaṅgaha/Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma, for example, and see for yourself (I'd suggest reading the introductory parts, and then sections that are of interest to you).

Although, it is complex, and difficult—especially for a beginner/intermediate, or for a person who hasn't read the Suttas extensively.

(It would likely be best to first study and have a solid understanding of paṭiccasamuppāda, satipaṭṭhāna and other of the more difficult Sutta teachings, and a good foundation in the Sutta teachings as a whole, though.)
SarathW
Posts: 21227
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: Can Abhidhamma assist in my practice? How?

Post by SarathW »

Before you worry about Abhidhamma you have to be an advanced practitioner with the Sutta knowledge.
Have you read the Sutta?
Have you done some practice based on Sutta?
Are you familiar with the terminology of Sutta?
I recommend people to read Abhidhamma when they are quite confident in Sutta knowledge.
In my opinion, Abhidhamma helps you with advanced practitioners.
Why I am saying this is as Bhikkhu Bodhi said, reading Abhidhamma is like eating dry grass.
Eating green grass for a human is bad enough just imagine that you have to eat dry grass!
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 12032
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Can Abhidhamma assist in my practice? How?

Post by DooDoot »

SarathW wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 10:52 pm Before you worry about Abhidhamma you have to be an advanced practitioner with the Sutta knowledge.
Do you have Sutta Knowledge? Which sutta refers to the "birth" ("jati") of self-view? Thanks :thanks:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
Mr. Seek
Posts: 582
Joined: Sun Oct 25, 2020 5:45 am

Re: Can Abhidhamma assist in my practice? How?

Post by Mr. Seek »

SarathW wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 10:52 pm Before you worry about Abhidhamma you have to be an advanced practitioner with the Sutta knowledge.
Have you read the Sutta?
Have you done some practice based on Sutta?
Are you familiar with the terminology of Sutta?
I recommend people to read Abhidhamma when they are quite confident in Sutta knowledge.
In my opinion, Abhidhamma helps you with advanced practitioners.
Why I am saying this is as Bhikkhu Bodhi said, reading Abhidhamma is like eating dry grass.
Eating green grass for a human is bad enough just imagine that you have to eat dry grass!
Give it to me!
Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 8:40 pm The Abhidhamma had two primary purposes. Firstly, to organise what was found in the suttas and to offer further clarifications. Secondly, to act as an aid to meditation.
How does it aid in meditation? I've heard of this before, but I don't know how. I even heard of medtitating monks carrying with them the Paṭṭhāna when on forest retreats.
DiamondNgXZ
Posts: 390
Joined: Sat Feb 13, 2021 5:40 am

Re: Can Abhidhamma assist in my practice? How?

Post by DiamondNgXZ »

Mr. Seek wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 5:39 am
How does it aid in meditation? I've heard of this before, but I don't know how. I even heard of medtitating monks carrying with them the Paṭṭhāna when on forest retreats.
Studying the 52 cetasikas mostly helps in identifying what mental contents are there in the mind. It's a more systematic classification compared to the suttas, so easier to see them while meditating.

Let's use an example, piti (joy/rapture), is one of the cetasikas, in the 5 aggregates classification, it's volitional formations. So piti is actually something we can will, control. This is as opposed to sukha (happiness), which is a resultant pleasant feeling. This is useful in identifying the factors of Jhanas, cause piti and sukha arises together frequently and if you know these details, you can distinguish them a bit more. Especially on the differences between 2nd and 3rd Jhana, where piti disappeared in 3rd Jhana.

It's things like this which could help.
Ontheway
Posts: 3062
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2021 3:35 pm

Re: Can Abhidhamma assist in my practice? How?

Post by Ontheway »

I don't try to advertise any Suttas or Abhidhamma to people who are not interested in Saddhamma. It is always Ehipassiko.

But if you ask what is the benefits of reading and learning Abhidhamma, for my case:

1) It will deepen my understanding on Dhamma, especially topics dealing with Khandhas, Ayatanas, Dhatu. (Dhammasangani, Dhatukatha, Vibhanga)

2) It facilitates better understand on Paticca Samuppada, without having risk getting into Sassata Ditthi and Uccheda Ditthi, or misunderstand what Buddha taught, eg: Sati the fisherman's son. (Vibhanga)

3) It helps to differentiate which teaching is correct and which is incorrect. (Kathavathu)

4) It helps to broaden my knowledge on types of people and various phenomena (Puggalapannati, Yamaka, Patthana)

All these knowledge and understanding will in turn contribute to my practice in various aspects :

- How to perform meritorious deeds with best experience,
- How to watch our thoughts from time to time,
- How to differentiate various teachings from different schools,
- How to be more observant to our actions,
- Understand more about the nature of Mind or how it works,
- It facilitates the understanding of the arising and ceasing of phenomena due to conditions, that all things are Anicca, Dukkha, and Anatta.

So, I think for a beginner who really aim for Nibbana, he/she can read through the Gathas, Dhammapada, Jatakas, and Sutta Nipata first and practice accordingly.

As he/she progress in the path, can study more about short Suttanta texts and try Samattha meditation to calm his/her mind. Later he/she should study the longer suttas and Abhidhamma Pitaka while approaching Vipassana meditation, it is to deepen his/her knowledge on the nature of Mind & Body, and to facilitate Bhavana practice.

So, a serious Buddhist should study both Suttanta Pitaka and Abhidhamma Pitaka as much as possible. This is Pariyatti. Without proper Pariyatti, there can be no proper Patipatti; if without proper Patipatti, then Pativeda is impossible.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
User avatar
samseva
Posts: 3045
Joined: Sat Jan 18, 2014 12:59 pm

Re: Can Abhidhamma assist in my practice? How?

Post by samseva »

DiamondNgXZ wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 6:08 am Studying the 52 cetasikas mostly helps in identifying what mental contents are there in the mind.
Hi Bhante,

I've found this to be the case as well.

Although the descriptions of the sankhāra-kkhanda in the Suttas are useful...
the cetasika are listed systematically, which in some cases works very well.
Last edited by samseva on Fri Sep 24, 2021 12:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Mr. Seek
Posts: 582
Joined: Sun Oct 25, 2020 5:45 am

Re: Can Abhidhamma assist in my practice? How?

Post by Mr. Seek »

Can someone explain it to me like I'm 5? I sit down to meditate--then what, how does Abhidhamma assist in that, specifically? Cheers.
DiamondNgXZ
Posts: 390
Joined: Sat Feb 13, 2021 5:40 am

Re: Can Abhidhamma assist in my practice? How?

Post by DiamondNgXZ »

Mr. Seek wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 12:03 pm Can someone explain it to me like I'm 5? I sit down to meditate--then what, how does Abhidhamma assist in that, specifically? Cheers.
Helps you to identify what's happening in meditation. What you're experiencing, gives a name to it. The details of the proximate cause, manifestation, etc are quite nice to know.
Pulsar
Posts: 2641
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:52 pm

Re: Can Abhidhamma assist in my practice? How?

Post by Pulsar »

DiamondNgXZ wrote
Helps you to identify what's happening in meditation.
You are referring to identification. Does abhidhamma think identification is mandatory for the process of liberation from suffering? The 8-fold path advices "move away from all identification"
This is how I read it. Pl. tell me I am wrong.
You continued
What you're experiencing, gives a name to it.
Does abhidhmma teach that there is a
"You experiencing?"
You continued
The details of the proximate cause, manifestation, etc are quite nice to know.
It is indeed nice to know, but how does the abhidhamma explain the gap between the nice knowing and the end of suffering?
I appreciate OP's question and those who attempt to answer it.
Thanks Dearest DiamondNgXZ, for that answer.
Love :candle:

PS. As OP wrote "I too come in peace and would ilke to hear as many positive replies as possible. Cheers!"
DiamondNgXZ
Posts: 390
Joined: Sat Feb 13, 2021 5:40 am

Re: Can Abhidhamma assist in my practice? How?

Post by DiamondNgXZ »

Pulsar wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 12:35 pm DiamondNgXZ wrote
Helps you to identify what's happening in meditation.
You are referring to identification. Does abhidhamma think identification is mandatory for the process of liberation from suffering? The 8-fold path advices "move away from all identification"
This is how I read it. Pl. tell me I am wrong.
You continued
What you're experiencing, gives a name to it.
Does abhidhmma teach that there is a
"You experiencing?"
You continued
The details of the proximate cause, manifestation, etc are quite nice to know.
It is indeed nice to know, but how does the abhidhamma explain the gap between the nice knowing and the end of suffering?
I appreciate OP's question and those who attempt to answer it.
Thanks Dearest DiamondNgXZ, for that answer.
Love :candle:

PS. As OP wrote "I too come in peace and would ilke to hear as many positive replies as possible. Cheers!"
Part of a beginner's path to meditation is the unfamiliarity with the mind, so having a map, a guideline some names to point oh this is that, is helpful.

On the 10 rights, Noble 8fold path leads to right knowledge, then to right liberation. When you see things as they really are, impermanent, suffering, not self, you become disillusioned, passion fades away, with the fading of passion, there's liberation. With liberation, there's knowledge of liberation.

Meditation is all about putting the right causes to produce stillness which is the cause for seeing things as they really are, not another game where will power is used to control the mind.
Ontheway
Posts: 3062
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2021 3:35 pm

Re: Can Abhidhamma assist in my practice? How?

Post by Ontheway »

Found a paper regarding how Abhidhamma Patthana apply in practice.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... SDtbPm-Vl1
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
Post Reply