Is classical Theravada mostly proven false by Nagarjuna?

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SamD
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Re: Is classical Theravada mostly proven false by Nagarjuna?

Post by SamD »

retrofuturist wrote: Thu Dec 05, 2019 12:35 am Greetings Zan,
retrofuturist wrote: Mon Dec 02, 2019 7:32 am I would recommend reading "The Heretic Sage"... a short series of interviews with ven. Nanananda.
zan wrote: Wed Dec 04, 2019 3:04 pm Thanks! At a cursory glance it seems like the Venerable in the article agrees with Nagarjuna? Am I reading it wrong?
I'll be wary of what I say, mindful of the section we're in, but the key takeaway from ven. Nanananda's comments is that whilst Nagarjuna knew his stuff, Nanananda found that he didn't need to quote Nagarjuna or any other Mahayana resources in his Nibbana Sermons, because the relevant points which those resources might try to highlight, are already adequately and more appropriately covered in the Sutta Pitaka.

Metta,
Paul. :)
:twothumbsup:
Caodemarte
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Re: Is classical Theravada mostly proven false by Nagarjuna?

Post by Caodemarte »

Lankamed wrote: Mon Dec 09, 2019 9:27 am
retrofuturist wrote: Thu Dec 05, 2019 12:35 am Greetings Zan,
retrofuturist wrote: Mon Dec 02, 2019 7:32 am I would recommend reading "The Heretic Sage"... a short series of interviews with ven. Nanananda.
zan wrote: Wed Dec 04, 2019 3:04 pm Thanks! At a cursory glance it seems like the Venerable in the article agrees with Nagarjuna? Am I reading it wrong?
I'll be wary of what I say, mindful of the section we're in, but the key takeaway from ven. Nanananda's comments is that whilst Nagarjuna knew his stuff, Nanananda found that he didn't need to quote Nagarjuna or any other Mahayana resources in his Nibbana Sermons, because the relevant points which those resources might try to highlight, are already adequately and more appropriately covered in the Sutta Pitaka.

Metta,
Paul. :)
:twothumbsup:
Wonderful comment that would make Nagarjuna’s heart gladden. His philosophizing and many works had a soteriological purpose and were explicitly intended to show what was implicit in the Buddha’s teaching and its logical implications to those who trapped themselves with faulty assumptions, delusions, and endless attachments. To have people not need any such assistance can only make a true teacher thrilled.
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SDC
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Re: Is classical Theravada mostly proven false by Nagarjuna?

Post by SDC »

Moderator Note: Nitpicking of one another's personal opinions and interpretations does not belong in the Classical Theravada Section. Please see the guidelines.

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Coëmgenu
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Re: Is classical Theravada mostly proven false by Nagarjuna?

Post by Coëmgenu »

daveblack wrote: Mon Dec 02, 2019 2:48 pmMahayana first rejects Individual Liberation as impossible, i.e. you can't get to Nibbana by yourself, and it rejects it dogmatically with no sound reason to do so.

Then it brings in the theory of Corporate Liberation, that all beings must be liberated together or none are.
This is untrue. If Mahāyānists believed in corporate liberation, everyone would have been irreversibly liberated by Śākyamuni and he would have never taught the Dharma, it being unnecessary.
The thus come thus gone,
who has neither came nor went,
enthroned on men’s breath,

like the still turtle,
withdraws six appendages
and is clothed in light --

illuminating
the unilluminated
with three shining cures.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Is classical Theravada mostly proven false by Nagarjuna?

Post by Coëmgenu »

This thread needs to get out of Classical Theravāda. It is a thread mostly about the OP's gripes with that which is not Classical Theravāda. It is largely about Ven Nāgārjuna and seriously addressing the OP would require an in-depth discussion of Madhyamaka Buddhism and not one of Classical Theravāda. Because of this, I submit that this is a "Connections to Other Paths" thread.
The thus come thus gone,
who has neither came nor went,
enthroned on men’s breath,

like the still turtle,
withdraws six appendages
and is clothed in light --

illuminating
the unilluminated
with three shining cures.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Is classical Theravada mostly proven false by Nagarjuna?

Post by Coëmgenu »

santa100 wrote: Wed Dec 04, 2019 4:29 pm
zan wrote:No, both teachers were real. These are not unheard of attitudes in Zen temples. Historically and also today.
I know there's the idea of conventional/ultimate reality in Zen circles, but if what you said is true, that:
zan wrote:The main teacher at one approved of drinking and using drugs because of the interpretation of the dharma that nothing exists, and so these things cannot actually be wrong.
then, this is way out of line, and any serious teacher, Zen or non-Zen, would never ever approve/encourage such practice.
Honestly it's likely fake news. I find it absolutely unbelievable that someone could study Mahayana Buddhism for years and know absolutely nothing about it, nor anything about Ven Nāgārjuna to the point of being unable to substantiate a single point of Madhyamaka Buddhism on Page 2. I find it completely unbelievable that Zan was taught Mahāyāna Buddhism by some alcoholic non-monk yet knows nothing about it.
Last edited by Coëmgenu on Wed Nov 18, 2020 2:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The thus come thus gone,
who has neither came nor went,
enthroned on men’s breath,

like the still turtle,
withdraws six appendages
and is clothed in light --

illuminating
the unilluminated
with three shining cures.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Is classical Theravada mostly proven false by Nagarjuna?

Post by Coëmgenu »

zan wrote: Mon Dec 02, 2019 4:57 amIt proves nibbana and samsara are the same thing, which pretty much wrecks most of the dhamma since it is built around the two being different.
Since you've started what is objectively a thread concerning Madhyamaka, I don't feel out of bounds saying this is wrong. This is a very common Madhyamaka slogan, but it is just as wrong as "You are already enlightened," a tathagatagarbha slogan. Another famous slogan: "All dhammas are non-self." This mesmerizing slogan has the power to hypnotize individual Buddhists into thinking they don't believe in a self despite the fact that they obviously do. Such slogans let us turn our brain off by telling us what we believe, even if we don't truly believe in them at all.

In the MMK, what Ven Nagarjuna argues is that any sensation of samsara can be transformed into nibbana by the practitioner who is a true aryan saint. Because nibbana and samsara have no intrinsic essences, they can become each other.

But the section you are thinking about in the Nirvanapariksa just states that nibbana, the world, and the Buddha are fundamentally inconceivable by the uninstructed worldling's mind.
The thus come thus gone,
who has neither came nor went,
enthroned on men’s breath,

like the still turtle,
withdraws six appendages
and is clothed in light --

illuminating
the unilluminated
with three shining cures.
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robertk
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Re: Is classical Theravada mostly proven false by Nagarjuna?

Post by robertk »

Coëmgenu wrote: Wed Nov 18, 2020 2:10 pm This thread needs to get out of Classical Theravāda. It is a thread mostly about the OP's gripes with that which is not Classical Theravāda. It is largely about Ven Nāgārjuna and seriously addressing the OP would require an in-depth discussion of Madhyamaka Buddhism and not one of Classical Theravāda. Because of this, I submit that this is a "Connections to Other Paths" thread.
Mod note: If you wish to start a thread supporting Nagajuna dharmawheel.com might be more suitable
This topic will remain in Classical Theravada and all posts should follow the guidelines for this forum . If you see any new posts that are not following those guidelines please report them.

In future please do not post any meta discussion. See terms of service.
e. Disruptive meta-discussion (i.e. discussion about discussion, including in-topic complaints about the existence of discussions that don't suit your preferences
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Is classical Theravada mostly proven false by Nagarjuna?

Post by Coëmgenu »

robertk wrote: Wed Nov 18, 2020 5:36 pm
Coemgenu wrote:I submit that this is a "Connections to Other Paths" thread.
[...] In future please do not post any meta discussion.
Submission overruled.
The thus come thus gone,
who has neither came nor went,
enthroned on men’s breath,

like the still turtle,
withdraws six appendages
and is clothed in light --

illuminating
the unilluminated
with three shining cures.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Is classical Theravada mostly proven false by Nagarjuna?

Post by Coëmgenu »

Basically, the people in this subforum want to discuss Ven Nagarjuna without allowing his own viewpoint to appear, as posts here must submit to and reference Classical Theravada. Any significant discussion doing any degree of in-depth concerning the OP is off-topic for the subforum.

What a pointless thread. Yes, this is meta-discussion.
The thus come thus gone,
who has neither came nor went,
enthroned on men’s breath,

like the still turtle,
withdraws six appendages
and is clothed in light --

illuminating
the unilluminated
with three shining cures.
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Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
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Re: Is classical Theravada mostly proven false by Nagarjuna?

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta »

Coëmgenu wrote: Wed Nov 18, 2020 2:19 pm ...
I find it completely unbelievable that Zan was taught Mahāyāna Buddhism by some alcoholic non-monk yet knows nothing about it.
...


Then, it implies that:
  • Mahāyāna Buddhism is eruditely teachable by an alcoholic non-monk.

... ?


:heart:
.


🅢🅐🅑🅑🅔 🅓🅗🅐🅜🅜🅐 🅐🅝🅐🅣🅣🅐

Self ...
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Is classical Theravada mostly proven false by Nagarjuna?

Post by Coëmgenu »

I think an alcoholic would perhaps have at least have made an effort and we would clearly see the fruits of some form of education.
The thus come thus gone,
who has neither came nor went,
enthroned on men’s breath,

like the still turtle,
withdraws six appendages
and is clothed in light --

illuminating
the unilluminated
with three shining cures.
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