How Buddha taught

A forum for members who wish to develop a deeper understanding of the Pali Canon and associated Commentaries, which for discussion purposes are both treated as authoritative.
SarathW
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Re: How Buddha taught

Post by SarathW »

Meditation is an important aspect of Buddhist practice. There are forty subjects of samaadhi meditation to suit different individual temperaments and also many types of insight meditation. To select a suitable subject of meditation it is best to seek the help of a competent teacher. If such a teacher is not available, then one has to make a sincere and honest search of one's temperament and character and find guidance in a standard book on meditation. A few examples are given below:

The four sublime abodes — loving kindness for those with ill will; compassion for those with a streak of cruelty; sympathetic joy for those with envy, jealousy, aversion, and boredom; equanimity for those with lust and greed.
For the conceited: meditation on the absence of an abiding self in all bodily and mental phenomena of existence.
For those with sexual obsession: meditation on the unattractive nature of the body.
For those with wavering confidence:meditation on the Buddha, the Dhamma, and the Sangha.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... el322.html
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Pondera
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Re: How Buddha taught

Post by Pondera »

SDC wrote: Wed Nov 25, 2020 3:42 pm
Pondera wrote: Tue Nov 24, 2020 12:29 am I recall him teaching the contemplation of disgust over the body to ten or twenty monks who then went on to all commit suicide.

So, was that in their best interests? Was the Buddha “tailor making” his dhamma talk to increase strength? Or decrease weakness? Or neither? Maybe the Buddha wasn’t reading minds and perceiving the future at the time? Maybe he thought those monks would be better off dead?
If you read the full account of this event, found in the Vinaya, it is a lot clearer what occurred: https://suttacentral.net/pli-tv-bu-vb-pj3/en/brahmali

Thank you. Here is the pertinent information - completely consistent with what I’ve already said and in no way compatible with what the coconut said.
The monks thought, “The Master has talked in many ways about unattractiveness,” and they devoted themselves to the development of the mind in unattractiveness in its many different aspects. As a consequence, they became troubled by their own bodies, ashamed of them, disgusted with them. Just as a young woman or man—someone fond of adornments, who had just washed her hair—would be ashamed, humiliated, and disgusted if the carcase of a snake, a dog, or a man were hung around her neck, just so those monks were troubled by their own bodies. They took their own lives, took the lives of one another, and they approached Migalaṇḍika, the ascetic lookalike, and said, “Please kill us. This bowl and these robe will be yours.” And hired for a bowl and robes, Migalaṇḍika killed many monks.
“Monk, the property of light, the property of beauty, the property of the dimension of the infinitude of space, the property of the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, the property of the dimension of nothingness: These properties are to be reached as perception attainments.[2] The property of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception is to be reached as a remnant-of-fabrications attainment. The property of the cessation of feeling & perception is to be reached as a cessation attainment."[3]

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
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Pondera
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Re: How Buddha taught

Post by Pondera »

coconut wrote: Wed Nov 25, 2020 10:30 am
Pondera wrote: Wed Nov 25, 2020 10:17 am
coconut wrote: Wed Nov 25, 2020 8:58 am

It's not conjecture if you literally read the nikayas, and don't take single suttas out of context.

Asubha makes ill will and aversion stronger and must be balanced out with brahma viharas and anapanasati. Hence they developed aversion to their bodies and unskillfully dealt with it.
That may be the case. However it is not even remotely mentioned in the sutta I am talking about. The explicit cause of suicide for THESE monks in THIS sutta is “the contemplation of disgust over the body.”

You fail to realize that such a contemplation can be the DIRECT cause of a person taking their own life.
Unless you think the teaching is different for certain monks and not others. It's not. There is only one path, it's just that people misunderstand that path because they didn't read suttas back then, it was all verbal, some people even attained stream entry without ever meeting the Buddha, others didn't.
Obviously Sariputta was considered the most accomplished among the Buddha’s disciples. And then Moggallana.

Indeed Moggallana declared that if anyone were ever to be truly released through the help of the Buddha it would be him. And that was because the Buddha made PSYCHIC efforts to (for example) encourage wakefulness in Moggallana (among other things). Were all monks taught in this fashion? Of course not!

And it’s well known that the Buddha taught people according to their mental capacities.

Not every monk reached Arahantship. So there is one goal - but many paths. There is release by Samatha. There is release by Vipasanna. There is release by both. There is the path to stream entry. There is the path to seven fold rebirth. There is the the path of the once returner. There is the path of the Arahant.

Different teachings were taught by the Buddha for the welfare of all - not only those who he knew were capable of Arahantship.
There's countless suttas of the Buddha calling people fools for misunderstanding the dhamma.
Yes. He was such a harsh man, wasn’t he? So good that you are so fluent in the suttas 🤨

What is conjecture, however, is people using "chakra" meditation which is found nowhere in the nikayas because they think the Buddha's teachings are incomplete and thus they have wrong view. They also misunderstand or outright ignore the teachings.
Here is where your narrow view prevents you from establishing your self in jhana.

The Buddha taught red, blue, white, and yellow as objects of meditation.

By understanding where these objects exist in the body we are able to establish knowledge of how they relate to the key factors of rapture and sukha found in jhana.

The fact that you lack the inner vision to identify your chakras puts you at a disadvantage to those who possess the simple, yet intuitive, ability to look inwards and identify the existence of these colours within the body.
If you actually read the suttas you would know that these monks lived in the Charnel grounds (area with corpses), even took the robes off corpses and put them on their own bodies. They were around these corpses for months, 24/7.

If you read satipatthana sutta, you would see that charnel ground meditation is part of it.

Why would the Buddha teach it if it were not required? Again you have wrong view and don't understand the suttas nor the dhamma.

Instead you take one or two suttas about kasinas and reinterpret it to fit your wrong view.

SDC has provided sutta reference. You have posited conjecture.

My interpretation of the jhana sutta and the upanisa sutta could only be right if I got all eleven stages of the transcendental origination right.

Since I have nailed all eleven stages at will, whenever I want, for however long I want - I am tempted to think that I am right.

On the other hand, maybe you are right. Maybe your Anapanasati practice which works once in a while and leads you to rapture and bliss (once in a while - ie. without your ability to control it) - maybe that is the most consistent interpretation of the dhamma.

Including this subtle breath that seems to lead up to your eye brow. Hmm 🤔 that raises a few eye brows doesn’t it?
“Monk, the property of light, the property of beauty, the property of the dimension of the infinitude of space, the property of the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, the property of the dimension of nothingness: These properties are to be reached as perception attainments.[2] The property of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception is to be reached as a remnant-of-fabrications attainment. The property of the cessation of feeling & perception is to be reached as a cessation attainment."[3]

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
coconut
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Re: How Buddha taught

Post by coconut »

Pondera wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 8:39 am
coconut wrote: Wed Nov 25, 2020 10:30 am
Pondera wrote: Wed Nov 25, 2020 10:17 am

That may be the case. However it is not even remotely mentioned in the sutta I am talking about. The explicit cause of suicide for THESE monks in THIS sutta is “the contemplation of disgust over the body.”

You fail to realize that such a contemplation can be the DIRECT cause of a person taking their own life.



Obviously Sariputta was considered the most accomplished among the Buddha’s disciples. And then Moggallana.

Indeed Moggallana declared that if anyone were ever to be truly released through the help of the Buddha it would be him. And that was because the Buddha made PSYCHIC efforts to (for example) encourage wakefulness in Moggallana (among other things). Were all monks taught in this fashion? Of course not!

And it’s well known that the Buddha taught people according to their mental capacities.

Not every monk reached Arahantship. So there is one goal - but many paths. There is release by Samatha. There is release by Vipasanna. There is release by both. There is the path to stream entry. There is the path to seven fold rebirth. There is the the path of the once returner. There is the path of the Arahant.

Different teachings were taught by the Buddha for the welfare of all - not only those who he knew were capable of Arahantship.



Yes. He was such a harsh man, wasn’t he? So good that you are so fluent in the suttas 🤨



Here is where your narrow view prevents you from establishing your self in jhana.

The Buddha taught red, blue, white, and yellow as objects of meditation.

By understanding where these objects exist in the body we are able to establish knowledge of how they relate to the key factors of rapture and sukha found in jhana.

The fact that you lack the inner vision to identify your chakras puts you at a disadvantage to those who possess the simple, yet intuitive, ability to look inwards and identify the existence of these colours within the body.
If you actually read the suttas you would know that these monks lived in the Charnel grounds (area with corpses), even took the robes off corpses and put them on their own bodies. They were around these corpses for months, 24/7.

If you read satipatthana sutta, you would see that charnel ground meditation is part of it.

Why would the Buddha teach it if it were not required? Again you have wrong view and don't understand the suttas nor the dhamma.

Instead you take one or two suttas about kasinas and reinterpret it to fit your wrong view.

SDC has provided sutta reference. You have posited conjecture.

My interpretation of the jhana sutta and the upanisa sutta could only be right if I got all eleven stages of the transcendental origination right.

Since I have nailed all eleven stages at will, whenever I want, for however long I want - I am tempted to think that I am right.

On the other hand, maybe you are right. Maybe your Anapanasati practice which works once in a while and leads you to rapture and bliss (once in a while - ie. without your ability to control it) - maybe that is the most consistent interpretation of the dhamma.

Including this subtle breath that seems to lead up to your eye brow. Hmm 🤔 that raises a few eye brows doesn’t it?
Better to walk 1 step in the right direction than 100 steps in the wrong direction. And unfortunately you have a 75% chance of walking in the wrong direction.
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Pondera
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Re: How Buddha taught

Post by Pondera »

coconut wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 10:29 am
Pondera wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 8:39 am
coconut wrote: Wed Nov 25, 2020 10:30 am

If you actually read the suttas you would know that these monks lived in the Charnel grounds (area with corpses), even took the robes off corpses and put them on their own bodies. They were around these corpses for months, 24/7.

If you read satipatthana sutta, you would see that charnel ground meditation is part of it.

Why would the Buddha teach it if it were not required? Again you have wrong view and don't understand the suttas nor the dhamma.

Instead you take one or two suttas about kasinas and reinterpret it to fit your wrong view.

SDC has provided sutta reference. You have posited conjecture.

My interpretation of the jhana sutta and the upanisa sutta could only be right if I got all eleven stages of the transcendental origination right.

Since I have nailed all eleven stages at will, whenever I want, for however long I want - I am tempted to think that I am right.

On the other hand, maybe you are right. Maybe your Anapanasati practice which works once in a while and leads you to rapture and bliss (once in a while - ie. without your ability to control it) - maybe that is the most consistent interpretation of the dhamma.

Including this subtle breath that seems to lead up to your eye brow. Hmm 🤔 that raises a few eye brows doesn’t it?
Better to walk 1 step in the right direction than 100 steps in the wrong direction. And unfortunately you have a 75% chance of walking in the wrong direction.
Ha. Okay. Nice talking to you coconut. The next time I need a random percentage pulled out of someone’s rear end, I’ll come searching for you 😀
“Monk, the property of light, the property of beauty, the property of the dimension of the infinitude of space, the property of the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, the property of the dimension of nothingness: These properties are to be reached as perception attainments.[2] The property of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception is to be reached as a remnant-of-fabrications attainment. The property of the cessation of feeling & perception is to be reached as a cessation attainment."[3]

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
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