A Manual of the Excellent Man (bodhisatta path)

A forum for members who wish to develop a deeper understanding of the Pali Canon and associated Commentaries, which for discussion purposes are both treated as authoritative.
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Ben
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Re: A Manual of the Excellent Man (bodhisatta path)

Post by Ben »

Hi Will

Contact is when sense data impinge on sense organ. Its the mind that responds to contact in an elaborate sequence of cittas and mental processes that follow contact.
Rebirth-linking consciousness is a bridging consciousness from the end of one life to the beginning of the next. Basically. I recommend that you get yourself a copy of Bhikkhu Bodhi's 'A Comprehensive Manual of the Abhidhamma' for more information on the internal mental processes including contact and rebirth-linking consciousness.
kind regards

Ben
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Re: A Manual of the Excellent Man (bodhisatta path)

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Will:

As Ben said, contact is when a sense object impinges on an internal sense base, leading to consciousness arising. Here is a typical paragraph fom a Sutta:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... tml#phassa" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"'The six classes of contact should be known.' Thus was it said. In reference to what was it said? Dependent on the eye & forms there arises consciousness at the eye. The meeting of the three is contact. Dependent on the ear & sounds there arises consciousness at the ear. The meeting of the three is contact. Dependent on the nose & aromas there arises consciousness at the nose. The meeting of the three is contact. Dependent on the tongue & flavors there arises consciousness at the tongue. The meeting of the three is contact. Dependent on the body & tactile sensations there arises consciousness at the body. The meeting of the three is contact. Dependent on the intellect & ideas there arises consciousness at the intellect. The meeting of the three is contact. 'The six classes of contact should be known.' Thus was it said. And in reference to this was it said. This is the fourth sextet.
See also: http://what-buddha-said.net/library/Bud ... htm#phassa" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: A Manual of the Excellent Man

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

Dhammanando wrote:Hi Will,
Will wrote:First puzzlement - is it a typo on pages 2-3 re: Sila, where it says that it manifests only as verbal purity? It does not mention bodily purity, whereas the first part of the comments does mention bodily purity. The online edition has only "verbal purity" too.
Yes, it's a typo. It should be "moral" not "verbal".
I checked my earlier edition, and there too it says purity of verbal actions. The Pali just seems to say that "it manifests as purity," with no mention of either bodily or verbal actions.

So, I think "it is manifested as moral purity;" would be better. Do you agree?
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Re: A Manual of the Excellent Man

Post by Dhammanando »

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:I checked my earlier edition, and there too it says purity of verbal actions. The Pali just seems to say that "it manifests as purity," with no mention of either bodily or verbal actions.

So, I think "it is manifested as moral purity;" would be better. Do you agree?
Yes bhante, that would seem to be in line with the Anguttara Commentary's gloss on soceyya:
  • “Soceyyan” ti sīlavasena sucibhāvo.

    “Purity” means a pure state with respect to moral habit.
    (AA.ii.161)
Anabhirati kho, āvuso, imasmiṃ dhammavinaye dukkhā, abhirati sukhā.

“To not delight in this dhammavinaya, friend, is painful; to delight in it is bliss.”
(Sukhasutta, AN 10:66)
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Re: A Manual of the Excellent Man (bodhisatta path)

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

Thank you for the input. I have now updated both the web page and the PDF file.
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Re: A Manual of the Excellent Man (bodhisatta path)

Post by Nicholas Weeks »

Just bumping up this old thread because of the wonderful value of the text!
“Virtue observed out of craving for glorious existences and
material well-being is inferior; virtue observed for one’s own
release is moderate; virtue observed to liberate all beings, which
is the perfection of virtue, is superior.” (Visuddhimagga)

Release from the cycle of birth and death, and release from the mundane
attainments of glorious existences, mean the same thing. The second grade
is regarded as inferior because it falls short of being a practice for perfections.
Observance for the sake of one’s own release is the perfection practised by
the Solitary Buddhas and ordinary disciples. Observance for the liberation
of all beings is the perfection practised by Perfectly Enlightened Buddhas.
From pages 7-8
Dhamma is against the stream of common thought, deep, subtle, difficult, delicate, unseen by passion’s slaves cloaked in the murk of ignorance. Vipassī Buddha
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Ceisiwr
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Re: A Manual of the Excellent Man

Post by Ceisiwr »

Dhammanando wrote: Thu Jan 01, 2009 5:31 am Hi Will,

The point that Ben touched upon —Bhikkhu Bodhi's account of the criticisms by Ledi Sayadaw of a mediaeval Abhidhamma commentary by Sumangalasāmī— is online: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... himan.html
  • Abhidhammatthavibhavini-Tika, or in brief, the Vibhavini, written by Acariya Sumangalasami, pupil of the eminent Sri Lankan elder Sariputta Mahasami, also in the twelfth century. This tika quickly superceded the Old Commentary and is generally considered the most profound and reliable exegetical work on the Sangaha. In Burma this work is known as tika-gyaw, "the Famous Commentary." The author is greatly respected for his erudition and mastery of the Abhidhamma. He relies heavily on older authorities such as the Abhidhamma-Anutika and the Visuddhimagga-Mahatika (also known as the Paramatthamanjusa). Although Ledi Sayadaw (see below) criticized the Vibhavini extensively in his own commentary on the Sangaha, its popularity has not diminished but indeed has even increased, and several Burmese scholars have risen to defend it against Ledi Sayadaw's criticisms.

    [...]

    Paramatthadipani-Tika, "The Elucidation of the Ultimate Meaning," by Ledi Sayadaw. Ledi Sayadaw of Burma (1846-1923) was one of the greatest scholar-monks and meditation masters of the Theravada tradition in recent times. He was the author of over seventy manuals on different aspects of Theravada Buddhism, including philosophy, ethics, meditation practice, and Pali grammar. His tika created a sensation in the field of Abhidhamma studies because he pointed out 325 places in the esteemed Vibhavini-tika where he alleged that errors and misinterpretations had occurred, though his criticisms also set off a reaction in defense of the older work.
Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
Bhante is there anywhere where I can read said commentaries in English, or where I can read a summary of the main points of Ledi Sayadaw's criticism?
“The mental and material are really here,
But here there is no human being to be found,
For it is void and merely fashioned like a doll—
Just suffering piled up like grass and sticks.”


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Re: A Manual of the Excellent Man (bodhisatta path)

Post by Nicholas Weeks »

In the final chapter the Sayadaw gives us five Great Opportunities: 1) human rebirth, 2) meeting a Buddha's teaching, 3) becoming a Bhikkhu, 4) having confidence, 5) hearing the Dhamma. Here is some of the Great Opportunity of confidence:
4. The Great Opportunity of Having Confidence
There are four classes of confidence: 1) Pasāda Saddhā, 2) Okappana Saddhā,
3) Āgama Saddhā, and 4) Adhigama Saddhā.

1. Pasāda Saddhā is confidence in the Three Gems because the Buddha,
the Dhamma, and the Saṅgha are recognized as being worthy of reverence.
It is based upon a superficial high regard for the Three Gems and not on a
deep conviction, so it is not stable.
2. Okappana Saddhā is confidence inspired by the noble attributes of the
Buddha, the Dhamma, and the Saṅgha. It comes out of conviction and it
endures for a lifetime, but after one’s death it vanishes from one’s consciousness.
3. Āgama Saddhā is the type of confidence acquired by bodhisattas. After
receiving recognition and assurance of future Buddhahood, a bodhisatta has
unwavering confidence in the Three Gems, which implies an abiding
confidence in the merit of good deeds.
4. Adhigama Saddhā is the confidence nurtured by the Noble One who,
having won the fruits of path knowledge, has realized nibbāna.

Of these four classes, even the first is a rare gift. Many who are born in
Buddhist countries do not have even this kind of confidence.
One who has the second kind of confidence can revere a bhikkhu whose
conduct is far from being correct, knowing the nine attributes of the Ariya
Saṅgha to which a bhikkhu belongs.
One endowed with Āgama Saddhā cannot refrain from doing some sort
of perfect merit even for a day.
The Noble Ones, who have won attainments in the path knowledges, are
endowed with a confidence that is a great attainment (adhigama). They have
an abiding confidence in the Three Gems, the upkeep of the five precepts,
the performance of the ten kinds of meritorious deeds, and the practice of
the thirty-seven factors of enlightenment.

Confidence is a key factor that determines the extent of one’s realization
of nibbāna.
Dhamma is against the stream of common thought, deep, subtle, difficult, delicate, unseen by passion’s slaves cloaked in the murk of ignorance. Vipassī Buddha
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Dhammavamsa
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Re: A Manual of the Excellent Man (bodhisatta path)

Post by Dhammavamsa »

Ben wrote: Sat May 29, 2010 11:26 pm Hi Will

Contact is when sense data impinge on sense organ. Its the mind that responds to contact in an elaborate sequence of cittas and mental processes that follow contact.
Rebirth-linking consciousness is a bridging consciousness from the end of one life to the beginning of the next. Basically. I recommend that you get yourself a copy of Bhikkhu Bodhi's 'A Comprehensive Manual of the Abhidhamma' for more information on the internal mental processes including contact and rebirth-linking consciousness.
kind regards

Ben
Hi, Ben. I would like to ask a question.
In Visuddhimagga, the word 'Patisandhi' , is it an adjective?

In the Suttas, I read that consciousness is dependent on organ base, eg: eye consciousness, ear consciousness,etc. Meanwhile, in Visuddhimagga, it was mentioned that nothing come from or transmigrate from previous life to the new life.

So, what"patisandhi Vinnanam" = rebirth linking consciousness meant is the consciousness here we accumulated in this life are contributing to rebirth according our accumulated kamma, therefore the term "rebirth linking".
"Sīle patiṭṭhāya naro sapañño cittaṃ paññañ ca bhāvayaṃ, Ātāpi nipako bhikkhu so imaṃ vijaṭaye jaṭanti." - Gotama Buddha, in Jaṭā Suttaṃ (Devatā-Saṃyutta)

Let me have unwavering confidence in the Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha.
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Re: A Manual of the Excellent Man (bodhisatta path)

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Dhammavamsa wrote: Tue Jun 01, 2021 1:31 am Hi, Ben. I would like to ask a question.
Ben ceased to exist, here. Many give priority to self & pride rather than give priority to the Dhamma. Dhamma is permanent & eternal. Self-pride is impermanent & concocted from deluded hallucinations.
In Visuddhimagga, the word 'Patisandhi' , is it an adjective?
it seems "paṭisandhi" first appears in Abhidhamma. You should examine its use there (since an adjective & noun in Pali will be the same spelling)
In the Suttas, I read that consciousness is dependent on organ base, eg: eye consciousness, ear consciousness, etc.
Indeed :bow: . MN 38, MN 148, SN 22.53, SN 22.82, SN 12.67, etc
Dhammavamsa wrote: Tue Jun 01, 2021 1:31 amMeanwhile, in Visuddhimagga, it was mentioned that nothing come from or transmigrate from previous life to the new life.
You should avoid making trouble/difficulties for others by quoting what you assert. This is the practise of higher morality; to avoid false speech that leads to 'rebirth' in hell (such as getting publicly humiliated). Please quote the exact paragraph from the Visuddhimagga. Thanks :thanks:
So, what "patisandhi Vinnanam" = rebirth linking consciousness meant is the consciousness here we accumulated in this life are contributing to rebirth according our accumulated kamma, therefore the term "rebirth linking".
Consciousness (vinanna) is sense awareness. It does not "accumulate" anything. While defilements can be accumulated, it is not consciousness that accumulates. Your idea of an accumulating "store-house consciousness" sounds like Mahayana. :roll:
116. Hasten to do good; restrain your mind (cittaṁ) from evil. He who is slow in doing good, his mind (mano) delights in evil.

117. Should a person commit evil, let him not do it again and again. Let him not find pleasure therein, for painful is the accumulation of evil.

118. Should a person do good, let him do it again and again. Let him find pleasure therein, for blissful is the accumulation of good.

119. It may be well with the evil-doer as long as the evil ripens not. But when it does ripen, then the evil-doer sees (the painful results of) his evil deeds :x .

120. It may be ill with the doer of good as long as the good ripens not. But when it does ripen, then the doer of good sees (the pleasant results of) his good deeds.

121. Think not lightly of evil, saying, "It will not come to me." Drop by drop is the water pot filled. Likewise, the fool, gathering it little by little, fills himself with evil.

122. Think not lightly of good, saying, "It will not come to me." Drop by drop is the water pot filled. Likewise, the wise man, gathering it little by little, fills himself with good.

Dhammapada
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Re: A Manual of the Excellent Man (bodhisatta path)

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DooDoot wrote: Tue Jun 01, 2021 1:51 am
In Visuddhimagga, the word 'Patisandhi' , is it an adjective?
it seems "paṭisandhi" first appears in Abhidhamma. You should examine its use there (since an adjective & noun in Pali will be the same spelling)
Paṭisandhikkhaṇe atītārammaṇaṁ ekaṁ khandhaṁ paṭicca tayo khandhā …pe… dve khandhe paṭicca dve khandhā... etc
Dependent on state with past object (atītārammaṇa), arises state with past object by root condition (hetu paccayā).

Dependent on one aggregate with past object, arise three aggregates … dependent on two aggregates, arise two aggregates;

At the moment of conception (paṭisandhi kkhaṇe), dependent on one aggregate with past object, arise three aggregates … dependent on two aggregates, arise two aggregates.

Dependent on state with future object (anāgatārammaṇa), arises state with future object by root condition.
Dependent on one aggregate with future object, arise three aggregates … two aggregates.

Dependent on state with present object (paccuppannārammaṇa), arises state with present object by root condition.
Dependent on one aggregate with present object, arise three aggregates … two aggregates;

At the moment of conception (paṭisandhi kkhaṇe), dependent on one aggregate with present object :shock: , arise three aggregates … two aggregates.

https://suttacentral.net/patthana1.20/en/narada
Not-root 3
Pts-s 6 Dependent on state with past object, arises state with past object by not-root condition.

Dependent on one rootless aggregate with past object, arise three aggregates … two aggregates …

At the moment of rootless :shock: conception (ahetukapaṭisandhikkhaṇe)…

Dependent on doubt-accompanied or restlessness-accompanied aggregates, arises doubt-accompanied or restlessness-accompanied delusion. (1)

https://suttacentral.net/patthana1.20/en/narada
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Re: A Manual of the Excellent Man

Post by Dhammanando »

Ceisiwr wrote: Mon May 31, 2021 6:26 pm Bhante is there anywhere where I can read said commentaries in English, or where I can read a summary of the main points of Ledi Sayadaw's criticism?
I don't know of any English language sources for the Ledi vs Sumangalasāmi controversies, other than the handful discussed in Bhikkhu Bodhi's CMA.

The Pali of Ledi's Paramatthadīpanī is available online from the Goenka folks and on their Tipiṭaka CD.

The phrases to look for are na yujjati or na yuttaṃ ("this is untenable") and na sundaraṃ ("this is inelegant"). The former phrase is used when Ledi is challenging the substance of Sumangalasāmi's interpretation; the latter is used when he agrees with the substance but thinks the author has used clumsy, ambiguous or misleading phrasing.

Edit:

I forgot to mention that Sumangalasāmi's work was translated by R.P. Wijeratne and then put into publishable form by Ven. Pesala and Rupert Gethin. It's available from the PTS as Summary of the Topics of Abhidhamma.
Anabhirati kho, āvuso, imasmiṃ dhammavinaye dukkhā, abhirati sukhā.

“To not delight in this dhammavinaya, friend, is painful; to delight in it is bliss.”
(Sukhasutta, AN 10:66)
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Re: A Manual of the Excellent Man (bodhisatta path)

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DooDoot wrote: Tue Jun 01, 2021 1:51 am
In Visuddhimagga, the word 'Patisandhi' , is it an adjective?
it seems "paṭisandhi" first appears in Abhidhamma. You should examine its use there (since an adjective & noun in Pali will be the same spelling)
not Abhidhamma but later ideas from King Milinda teachings:
“Netaṁ, mahārāja, vacanaṁ bhagavatā arahante upādāya bhaṇitaṁ— ‘sabbe tasanti daṇḍassa, sabbe bhāyanti maccuno’ti.

‘It was not with regard to Arahats, O king, that the Blessed One spake when he said: “All men tremble at punishment, all are afraid of death.”

Ṭhapito arahā tasmiṁ vatthusmiṁ, samūhato bhayahetu arahato.

the Arahat is an exception to that statement, for all cause for fear has been removed from the Arahat.

Ye te, mahārāja, sattā sakilesā, yesañca adhimattā attānudiṭṭhi, ye ca sukhadukkhesu unnatāvanatā, te upādāya bhagavatā bhaṇitaṁ—

He spoke of those beings in whom evil still existed, who are still infatuated with the delusion of self, who are still lifted up and cast down by pleasures and pains.

Arahato, mahārāja, sabbagati upacchinnā, yoni viddhaṁsitā, paṭisandhi upahatā, bhaggā phāsukā, samūhatā sabbabhavālayā, samucchinnā sabbasaṅkhārā, hataṁ kusalākusalaṁ, vihatā avijjā, abījaṁ viññāṇaṁ kataṁ, daḍḍhā sabbakilesā, ativattā lokadhammā, tasmā arahā na tasati sabbabhayehi.

To the Arahat, O king, rebirth ( :?: gati) in every state has been cut off, all the four kinds of future existence ( :?: yoni ) have been destroyed, every re-incarnation ( :?: paṭisandhi) has been put an end to, the rafters of the house of life have broken, and the whole house completely pulled down, the conditions have altogether lost their roots, good and evil have ceased, ignorance has been demolished, consciousness has no longer any seed (from which it could be renewed), all sin has been burnt away, and all worldly conditions have been overcome. Therefore is it that the Arahat is not made to tremble by any fear.’

https://suttacentral.net/mil5.2.3/pli/ms T.W. Rhys Davids English 1890 :shock:
“Bhante nāgasena, ‘dīpiniyā ekaṁ aṅgaṁ gahetabban’ti yaṁ vadesi, katamaṁ taṁ ekaṁ aṅgaṁ gahetabban”ti?

‘Venerable Nāgasena, that one quality of the female of the panther which you say he ought to take, which is that?’

“Yathā, mahārāja, dīpinī sakiṁyeva gabbhaṁ gaṇhāti, na punappunaṁ purisaṁ upeti?

‘Just, O king, as the female of the panther conceives only once, and does not resort again and again to the male

Evameva kho, mahārāja, yoginā yogāvacarena āyatiṁ paṭisandhiuppattiṁ gabbhaseyyaṁ cutiṁ bhedaṁ khayaṁ vināsaṁ saṁsārabhayaṁ duggatiṁ visamaṁ sampīḷitaṁ disvā ‘punabbhave nappaṭisandahissāmī’ti yoniso manasikāro karaṇīyo

just so, O king, should the strenuous Bhikshu, earnest in effort — seeing how future conceptions and births ( :?: ) involve a period of gestation and a fall from each state as it is reached, and dissolution and death and destruction, seeing the horrors of transmigration and of rebirths in evil states, the annoyance of them, the torment of them—he should stedfastly resolve never to enter upon any future life.

https://suttacentral.net/mil7.2.4/en/tw_rhysdavids
Rājā āha— "bhante nāgasena, yaṁ panetaṁ brūsi ‘dīghamaddhānan’ti, kimetaṁ addhānaṁ nāmā”ti?

The king said: ‘You speak, Nāgasena, of time immemorial. What does this word “time” mean?’

“Atīto, mahārāja, addhā, anāgato addhā, paccuppanno addhā”ti.

‘Past time, O king, and present, and future.’

“Kiṁ pana, bhante, sabbe addhā atthī”ti?

‘But what? is there such a thing as time?’

“Koci, mahārāja, addhā atthi, koci natthī”ti.

‘There is time which exists, and time which does not.’

“Katamo pana, bhante, atthi, katamo natthī”ti?

‘Which then exists, and which not?’

“Ye te, mahārāja, saṅkhārā atītā vigatā niruddhā vipariṇatā, so addhā natthi, ye dhammā vipākā, ye ca vipākadhammadhammā, ye ca aññatra paṭisandhiṁ denti, so addhā atthi.

‘There are conditions (constituent potentialities of being), O king, which are past in the sense of having passed away, and ceased to be, or of having been dissolved, or altogether changed. To them time is not. But there are conditions of heart which are now producing their effect, or still have in them the inherent possibility of producing effect, or which will otherwise lead to reindividualisation :shock: .

Ye sattā kālaṅkatā aññatra uppannā, so ca addhā atthi. Ye sattā kālaṅkatā aññatra anuppannā, so addhā natthi. Ye ca sattā parinibbutā, so ca addhā natthi parinibbutattā”ti.

To them time is. In the case of beings who, having died, have been reborn elsewhere, time is. In the case of beings who, having died, have not been reborn elsewhere, time is not; and in the case of beings who are altogether set free (who, having attained Nirvāna in their present life, have come to the end of that life), there time is not—because of their having been quite set free.’

“Kallosi, bhante nāgasenā”ti.

https://suttacentral.net/mil3.2.9/en/tw_rhysdavids
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Re: A Manual of the Excellent Man (bodhisatta path)

Post by Nicholas Weeks »

Ledi Sayadaw continues to exhort us:
This great opportunity of living in the era of the Buddha’s teaching is the
time for quenching the fires within. This is the opportune moment to
extinguish the eleven fires that have been burning since time immemorial.
It is the time to leave behind human affairs and cares, and to devote oneself
to the eradication of ignorance. Human welfare has been enjoyed often
enough throughout saṃsāra; this life is not exceptional. Whether one is a
billionaire or an emperor, one’s riches and prestige are well worth forsaking
in the quest for enlightenment. Even if one is a deva or a brahmā, these exalted
existences are useless when the fires of aging and death are still burning
within. All forms of worldly pleasures, whether those of kings, devas, or
brahmās, are sources of defilements that stimulate the process of rebirth. As
such, no pleasure is particularly worthwhile, as all are decaying, crumbling,
and perishing incessantly. The only worthwhile task to set oneself is to root
out the pernicious wrong view of personality, an illusion that does not
actually exist. This task must be taken up at the right time which is NOW.
Once the moment is past, the chance is lost!
Wonder if any other English translations of this Excellent manual have appeared since this 2000 edition?
Dhamma is against the stream of common thought, deep, subtle, difficult, delicate, unseen by passion’s slaves cloaked in the murk of ignorance. Vipassī Buddha
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Re: A Manual of the Excellent Man (bodhisatta path)

Post by Nicholas Weeks »

Thanks to Bhikkhu Pesala many of Ledi Sayadaw's works are available in print & PDF formats:

http://aimwell.org/ledi.html
Dhamma is against the stream of common thought, deep, subtle, difficult, delicate, unseen by passion’s slaves cloaked in the murk of ignorance. Vipassī Buddha
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