Adhipaññā-sikkhā and bhāvanāpāripūrī

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sphairos
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Adhipaññā-sikkhā and bhāvanāpāripūrī

Post by sphairos »

I have an important question for people knowledgeable in Classical Theravāda view. (please, don't answer if you are not well-read in Suttas and Abhidhamma and later tradition)

Would it be right to say from the classical point of view, that for a noble disciple (ariyasāvakassa) well-engaged in the practice of the training in higher wisdom (adhipaññā-sikkhā) (adhipaññā-anuyogam-anuyuttassa) the training in higher conduct (adhisīla-sikkhā) and the training in higher mind/contemplation (adhicitta-sikkhā) come to the fulfilment of development (bhāvanāpāripūrim gacchanti)?

Would it be correct to say that it is adhipaññā-sikkhā that brings/leads the Noble Eightfold Path, including the first two trainings, to "fulfilment of cultivation"?

Or it is incorrect, as I presume, and the adhipaññā-sikkhā comes to bhāvanāpāripūrī only on the basis of the perfectly fulfilled two first trainings?
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Assaji
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Re: Adhipaññā-sikkhā and bhāvanāpāripūrī

Post by Assaji »

Hi Sphairos,
sphairos wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 6:43 pm the adhipaññā-sikkhā comes to bhāvanāpāripūrī only on the basis of the perfectly fulfilled two first trainings?
Of course. As stated in the AN 5.22:

‘‘So vata, bhikkhave, bhikkhu agāravo appatisso asabhāgavuttiko ‘sabrahmacārīsu ābhisamācārikaṃ dhammaṃ paripūressatī’ti netaṃ ṭhānaṃ vijjati. ‘Ābhisamācārikaṃ dhammaṃ aparipūretvā sekhaṃ dhammaṃ paripūressatī’ti netaṃ ṭhānaṃ vijjati. ‘Sekhaṃ dhammaṃ aparipūretvā sīlakkhandhaṃ paripūressatī’ti netaṃ ṭhānaṃ vijjati. ‘Sīlakkhandhaṃ aparipūretvā samādhikkhandhaṃ paripūressatī’ti netaṃ ṭhānaṃ vijjati. ‘Samādhikkhandhaṃ aparipūretvā paññākkhandhaṃ paripūressatī’ti netaṃ ṭhānaṃ vijjati.

“(1) Bhikkhus, when a bhikkhu is irreverent and undeferential, and his behavior is uncongenial to his fellow monks, it is impossible for him to fulfill the factor of proper conduct. (2) Without fulfilling the factor of proper conduct, it is impossible for him to fulfill the factor of a trainee. (3) Without fulfilling the factor of a trainee, it is impossible for him to fulfill the aggregate of virtuous behavior. (4) Without fulfilling the aggregate of virtuous behavior, it is impossible for him to fulfill the aggregate of concentration. (5) Without fulfilling the aggregate of concentration, it is impossible for him to fulfill the aggregate of wisdom."

(translated by Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi)
ssasny
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Re: Adhipaññā-sikkhā and bhāvanāpāripūrī

Post by ssasny »

Well quoted Assaji.

Also, in AN 3.91 we have the beautiful stanzas:

Adhisīlaṃ adhicittaṃ, adhipaññañca vīriyavā;
Thāmavā dhitimā jhāyī, sato guttindriyo care.

Yathā pure tathā pacchā, yathā pacchā tathā pure;
Yathā adho tathā uddhaṃ, yathā uddhaṃ tathā adho.
...
Tamāhu sekhaṃ paṭipadaṃ, atho saṃsuddhacāriyaṃ / saṃsuddhacāraṇaṃ
Tamāhu loke sambuddhaṃ, dhīraṃ paṭipadantaguṃ.

Energetic, strong, and resolute,
meditative, mindful, the faculties guarded,
one should practice the higher virtue,
the higher mind, and the higher wisdom.

As before, so after;
as after, so before;
as below, so above;
as above, so below;
...
They call him a trainee on the path,
whose conduct has been well purified.
They call him enlightened in the world,
a wise one who has fulfilled the practice.
...

Ven. Bodhi trans.
sphairos
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Re: Adhipaññā-sikkhā and bhāvanāpāripūrī

Post by sphairos »

Assaji and ssasny, thank you very much for your responses.

Consequent question for you:

Would you be surprized if you met such doctrine where adhipaññā-sikkhā brings the other trainings to bhāvanāpāripūrī in a Buddhist Theravādin text? Would you consider it heterodox/heretical text?
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Assaji
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Re: Adhipaññā-sikkhā and bhāvanāpāripūrī

Post by Assaji »

sphairos wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 7:02 pm Would you be surprized if you met such doctrine where adhipaññā-sikkhā brings the other trainings to bhāvanāpāripūrī in a Buddhist Theravādin text?
Well, the right view, which belongs to the aggregate of wisdom, is the forerunner, as described in the Mahacattarisaka Sutta (MN 117).

Above-quoted AN 5.22 describes the requisite conditions for the complete development, and not what brings about what. So one may well start with the development of the right view, or even practice Vipassanā from the very start. However, complete development of wisdom would require the development of meditative composure (samadhi). And complete development of meditative composure would require the development of virtue.
sphairos wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 7:02 pm Would you consider it heterodox/heretical text?
I avoid resorting to name-calling. Buddhism is in such a decline that name-calling every nonsense would take many lifetimes, and won't help anybody.
sphairos
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Re: Adhipaññā-sikkhā and bhāvanāpāripūrī

Post by sphairos »

Assaji wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 7:03 am Well, the right view, which belongs to the aggregate of wisdom, is the forerunner, as described in the Mahacattarisaka Sutta (MN 117).

Above-quoted AN 5.22 describes the requisite conditions for the complete development, and not what brings about what. So one may well start with the development of the right view, or even practice Vipassanā from the very start. However, complete development of wisdom would require the development of meditative composure (samadhi). And complete development of meditative composure would require the development of virtue.
Yes, it is, but I wouldn't be able to understand how the pure paññā/adhipaññā/vipassanā practice, even that of sukkha-vipassanā-yāna, brings to fulfilment the adhisīla-sikkhā, -- would you? It is possible to imagine that adhipaññā develops adhicitta, as in the post-Visuddhimagga ṭīkas insight practice is said to itself engender the khaṇika-samādhi. But I don't see how insight develops the conduct (sīla) within a canonical framework. But I can see how that would be possible in the Mahāyāna framework, esp. in prajñāpāramitā practice.
sphairos wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 7:02 pm Would you consider it heterodox/heretical text?
I avoid resorting to name-calling. Buddhism is in such a decline that name-calling every nonsense would take many lifetimes, and won't help anybody.
Yes, I meant it in a detached, academic way -- "heterodox" would be a neutral enough qualification.
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sphairos
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Re: Adhipaññā-sikkhā and bhāvanāpāripūrī

Post by sphairos »

Cp. in that regard:

Aṅguttara Nikāya 4
14. Puggalavagga
137. Dutiyasīlasutta Variant: Dutiyasīlasutta → garupuggalasuttaṁ (bj)
“Cattārome, bhikkhave, puggalā santo saṁvijjamānā lokasmiṁ. Katame cattāro?

Idha, bhikkhave, ekacco puggalo na sīlagaru hoti na sīlādhipateyyo, na samādhigaru hoti na samādhādhipateyyo, na paññāgaru hoti na paññādhipateyyo.
Idha pana, bhikkhave, ekacco puggalo sīlagaru hoti sīlādhipateyyo, na samādhigaru hoti na samādhādhipateyyo, na paññāgaru hoti na paññādhipateyyo.
Idha pana, bhikkhave, ekacco puggalo sīlagaru hoti sīlādhipateyyo, samādhigaru hoti samādhādhipateyyo, na paññāgaru hoti na paññādhipateyyo.
Idha pana, bhikkhave, ekacco puggalo sīlagaru hoti sīlādhipateyyo, samādhigaru hoti samādhādhipateyyo, paññāgaru hoti paññādhipateyyo.
Ime kho, bhikkhave, cattāro puggalā santo saṁvijjamānā lokasmin”ti.

137. Ethics (2nd)
“Mendicants, these four people are found in the world. What four?

One person doesn’t value or submit to ethics, immersion, or wisdom.
One person values and submits to ethics, but not to immersion or wisdom.
One person values and submits to ethics and immersion, but not wisdom.
One person values and submits to ethics, immersion, and wisdom.
These are the four people found in the world.”

Aṅguttara Nikāya 4
14. Puggalavagga
136. Paṭhamasīlasutta Variant: Paṭhamasīlasutta → paripūrakārīsuttaṁ (bj)
“Cattārome, bhikkhave, puggalā santo saṁvijjamānā lokasmiṁ. Katame cattāro? Idha, bhikkhave, ekacco puggalo sīlesu na paripūrakārī hoti, samādhismiṁ na paripūrakārī, paññāya na paripūrakārī.

Idha pana, bhikkhave, ekacco puggalo sīlesu paripūrakārī hoti, samādhismiṁ na paripūrakārī, paññāya na paripūrakārī.

Idha pana, bhikkhave, ekacco puggalo sīlesu paripūrakārī hoti, samādhismiṁ paripūrakārī, paññāya na paripūrakārī.

Idha pana, bhikkhave, ekacco puggalo sīlesu paripūrakārī hoti, samādhismiṁ paripūrakārī, paññāya paripūrakārī.

Ime kho, bhikkhave, cattāro puggalā santo saṁvijjamānā lokasmin”ti.

136. Ethics (1st)
“Mendicants, these four people are found in the world. What four? One person has not fulfilled ethics, immersion, or wisdom.

One person has fulfilled ethics, but not immersion or wisdom.

One person has fulfilled ethics and immersion, but not wisdom.

One person has fulfilled ethics, immersion, and wisdom.

These are the four people found in the world.”
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How true are your ways?
ssasny
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Re: Adhipaññā-sikkhā and bhāvanāpāripūrī

Post by ssasny »

It seems to me that the qualities of sīla, samādhi, and paññā are developed in tandem, but at different rates based on one's proclivities.
So it seems that one can be a 'sīlesu paripūrakārī' without having fully developed wisdom, no?
But this doesn't mean that one is utterly devoid of wisdom, it just hasn't been brought to fulfillment.
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Assaji
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Re: Adhipaññā-sikkhā and bhāvanāpāripūrī

Post by Assaji »

ssasny wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 2:10 pm So it seems that one can be a 'sīlesu paripūrakārī' without having fully developed wisdom, no?
Yes, and that's the Stream-enterer described in the above-quoted Sutta:
Idha pana, bhikkhave, ekacco puggalo sīlesu paripūrakārī hoti, samādhismiṁ na paripūrakārī, paññāya na paripūrakārī.

One person has fulfilled ethics, but not immersion or wisdom.
This is described in more detail in Anguttara Nikaya 9.12:
Puna caparaṃ, sāriputta, idhekacco puggalo sīlesu paripūrakārī hoti, samādhismiṃ mattaso kārī, paññāya mattaso kārī. So tiṇṇaṃ saṃyojanānaṃ parikkhayā sattak­khat­tu­paramo hoti, sattak­khat­tu­paramaṃ deve ca manusse ca sandhāvitvā saṃsaritvā dukkhassantaṃ karoti.

Again, some person fulfills virtuous behavior but cultivates concentration and wisdom only to a moderate extent. With the destruction of three fetters, this person is a seven-times-at-most attainer who, after roaming and wandering on among devas and humans seven times at most, makes an end of suffering.
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