What is does this mean? (Help needed for reaching streamenterer.)

Exploring the Dhamma, as understood from the perspective of the ancient Pali commentaries.
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cappuccino
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Re: What is does this mean? (Help needed for reaching streamenterer.)

Post by cappuccino »

confusedlayman wrote: Fri Aug 13, 2021 4:11 am I think we should not take refuge in it as that also changes
impermanence is the teaching
zan
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Re: What is does this mean? (Help needed for reaching streamenterer.)

Post by zan »

Ontheway wrote: Thu Aug 12, 2021 4:38 am Is Jhanic attainment necessary for Sotapanna?

I myself couldn't even sit for a full hour meditation. I just follow the instructions in Okkantisamyutta, Ratana Sutta, and Mahaparinibbana Sutta section on the Mirror of Dhamma as my study & guidance for Sotapanna-magga phala.

Still struggling and striving.
Interesting. Could you please elaborate on your specific practice?
Assume all of my words on dhamma could be incorrect. Seek an arahant for truth.


"If we base ourselves on the Pali Nikayas, then we should be compelled to conclude that Buddhism is realistic. There is no explicit denial anywhere of the external world. Nor is there any positive evidence to show that the world is mind-made or simply a projection of subjective thoughts. That Buddhism recognizes the extra-mental existence of matter and the external world is clearly suggested by the texts. Throughout the discourses it is the language of realism that one encounters.
-Y. Karunadasa
Ontheway
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Re: What is does this mean? (Help needed for reaching streamenterer.)

Post by Ontheway »

zan wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 2:42 pm
Ontheway wrote: Thu Aug 12, 2021 4:38 am Is Jhanic attainment necessary for Sotapanna?

I myself couldn't even sit for a full hour meditation. I just follow the instructions in Okkantisamyutta, Ratana Sutta, and Mahaparinibbana Sutta section on the Mirror of Dhamma as my study & guidance for Sotapanna-magga phala.

Still struggling and striving.
Interesting. Could you please elaborate on your specific practice?
I am afraid I don't have much to share on this matter as I am still striving for Sotapanna Phala...

But let me share what I'm doing now.

Mainly I am using Ratana Sutta and Mahaparinibbana Sutta for guideline of Sotapanna attainment. I am now always reading, pondering, and revise again and again Suttas such as Anattalakkhana Sutta & Cula Saccaka Sutta. And also reading on Visuddhi Magga's Panna Bhumi Niddesa section. And frequently cross-questioning myself about 5 aggregates with Tilakkhana.
This is to tackle and utterly destroy any fragment of Sakkaya Ditthi (as well as other Micchaditthi such as Sassata Ditthi & Uccheda Ditthi) view that lingering around.

I will clear any doubt on Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha by researching their history, Suttas, and especially read "Buddhaguna, Dhammaguna, and Sanghaguna" together with their detailed exposition.

For Silabbata paramasa, this was easy because as soon as we have confidence towards the Dhamma and follow Buddha's teachings. Then automatically, all kinds of practice such as God worshipping, Mantra chanting, Offerings for spirits, Spiritual Yoga chakra, Praying to deities, Cow or dog asceticism, Fortune-telling, Asian Fengshui, Qigong, Bodhisattva worship, certain religious vows etc are all no longer attractive to me. For me, all of these are merely side ways that will never reach Nibbana.

But it is said in the Suttanta, to gain Sotapanna status, one must destroy three factors (above) and gain four factors through 4 factors.

1) To gain unwavering confidence to Buddha:
This I think mere Pariyatti wasn't enough. So I will practice Buddhanussati for it too.

2) To gain unwavering confidence to Dhamma:
Similar as above

3) To gain unwavering confidence to Sangha:
Similar as above

4) To have virtues like this: “And he possesses virtues that are dear to the Noble Ones, complete and perfect, spotless and pure, which are liberating, praised by the wise, uninfluenced (by worldly concerns), and favorable to concentration of mind." From what I understand, for layperson like us, it would be the 5 Precepts. But it is not merely taking the precepts one or two day, or on special days. It is to make these 5 precepts as a natural habit. So this is where I need to work harder and cannot be helped by studying alone.

Finally, I also make effort to study Paticca Samuppada and its detailed exposition. Because I think knowing "Yam kinci samudaya Dhammam, sabbam tam Nirodha Dhammanti" is one thing and realising it is another thing. And I will try meditate on it too in order to gain that Realization.

That's my current practice, it is a just personal experience.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
zan
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Re: What is does this mean? (Help needed for reaching streamenterer.)

Post by zan »

Ontheway wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 4:25 pm
zan wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 2:42 pm
Ontheway wrote: Thu Aug 12, 2021 4:38 am Is Jhanic attainment necessary for Sotapanna?

I myself couldn't even sit for a full hour meditation. I just follow the instructions in Okkantisamyutta, Ratana Sutta, and Mahaparinibbana Sutta section on the Mirror of Dhamma as my study & guidance for Sotapanna-magga phala.

Still struggling and striving.
Interesting. Could you please elaborate on your specific practice?
I am afraid I don't have much to share on this matter as I am still striving for Sotapanna Phala...

But let me share what I'm doing now.

Mainly I am using Ratana Sutta and Mahaparinibbana Sutta for guideline of Sotapanna attainment. I am now always reading, pondering, and revise again and again Suttas such as Anattalakkhana Sutta & Cula Saccaka Sutta. And also reading on Visuddhi Magga's Panna Bhumi Niddesa section. And frequently cross-questioning myself about 5 aggregates with Tilakkhana.
This is to tackle and utterly destroy any fragment of Sakkaya Ditthi (as well as other Micchaditthi such as Sassata Ditthi & Uccheda Ditthi) view that lingering around.

I will clear any doubt on Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha by researching their history, Suttas, and especially read "Buddhaguna, Dhammaguna, and Sanghaguna" together with their detailed exposition.

For Silabbata paramasa, this was easy because as soon as we have confidence towards the Dhamma and follow Buddha's teachings. Then automatically, all kinds of practice such as God worshipping, Mantra chanting, Offerings for spirits, Spiritual Yoga chakra, Praying to deities, Cow or dog asceticism, Fortune-telling, Asian Fengshui, Qigong, Bodhisattva worship, certain religious vows etc are all no longer attractive to me. For me, all of these are merely side ways that will never reach Nibbana.

But it is said in the Suttanta, to gain Sotapanna status, one must destroy three factors (above) and gain four factors through 4 factors.

1) To gain unwavering confidence to Buddha:
This I think mere Pariyatti wasn't enough. So I will practice Buddhanussati for it too.

2) To gain unwavering confidence to Dhamma:
Similar as above

3) To gain unwavering confidence to Sangha:
Similar as above

4) To have virtues like this: “And he possesses virtues that are dear to the Noble Ones, complete and perfect, spotless and pure, which are liberating, praised by the wise, uninfluenced (by worldly concerns), and favorable to concentration of mind." From what I understand, for layperson like us, it would be the 5 Precepts. But it is not merely taking the precepts one or two day, or on special days. It is to make these 5 precepts as a natural habit. So this is where I need to work harder and cannot be helped by studying alone.

Finally, I also make effort to study Paticca Samuppada and its detailed exposition. Because I think knowing "Yam kinci samudaya Dhammam, sabbam tam Nirodha Dhammanti" is one thing and realising it is another thing. And I will try meditate on it too in order to gain that Realization.

That's my current practice, it is a just personal experience.
Thank you for explaining. You seemed to imply you do not do sitting meditation. Are you doing mindfulness practices or anything like that? Do you do any kind of sitting practice whatsoever?
Assume all of my words on dhamma could be incorrect. Seek an arahant for truth.


"If we base ourselves on the Pali Nikayas, then we should be compelled to conclude that Buddhism is realistic. There is no explicit denial anywhere of the external world. Nor is there any positive evidence to show that the world is mind-made or simply a projection of subjective thoughts. That Buddhism recognizes the extra-mental existence of matter and the external world is clearly suggested by the texts. Throughout the discourses it is the language of realism that one encounters.
-Y. Karunadasa
Ontheway
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Re: What is does this mean? (Help needed for reaching streamenterer.)

Post by Ontheway »

zan wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 6:02 pm
Ontheway wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 4:25 pm
zan wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 2:42 pm

Interesting. Could you please elaborate on your specific practice?
I am afraid I don't have much to share on this matter as I am still striving for Sotapanna Phala...

But let me share what I'm doing now.

Mainly I am using Ratana Sutta and Mahaparinibbana Sutta for guideline of Sotapanna attainment. I am now always reading, pondering, and revise again and again Suttas such as Anattalakkhana Sutta & Cula Saccaka Sutta. And also reading on Visuddhi Magga's Panna Bhumi Niddesa section. And frequently cross-questioning myself about 5 aggregates with Tilakkhana.
This is to tackle and utterly destroy any fragment of Sakkaya Ditthi (as well as other Micchaditthi such as Sassata Ditthi & Uccheda Ditthi) view that lingering around.

I will clear any doubt on Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha by researching their history, Suttas, and especially read "Buddhaguna, Dhammaguna, and Sanghaguna" together with their detailed exposition.

For Silabbata paramasa, this was easy because as soon as we have confidence towards the Dhamma and follow Buddha's teachings. Then automatically, all kinds of practice such as God worshipping, Mantra chanting, Offerings for spirits, Spiritual Yoga chakra, Praying to deities, Cow or dog asceticism, Fortune-telling, Asian Fengshui, Qigong, Bodhisattva worship, certain religious vows etc are all no longer attractive to me. For me, all of these are merely side ways that will never reach Nibbana.

But it is said in the Suttanta, to gain Sotapanna status, one must destroy three factors (above) and gain four factors through 4 factors.

1) To gain unwavering confidence to Buddha:
This I think mere Pariyatti wasn't enough. So I will practice Buddhanussati for it too.

2) To gain unwavering confidence to Dhamma:
Similar as above

3) To gain unwavering confidence to Sangha:
Similar as above

4) To have virtues like this: “And he possesses virtues that are dear to the Noble Ones, complete and perfect, spotless and pure, which are liberating, praised by the wise, uninfluenced (by worldly concerns), and favorable to concentration of mind." From what I understand, for layperson like us, it would be the 5 Precepts. But it is not merely taking the precepts one or two day, or on special days. It is to make these 5 precepts as a natural habit. So this is where I need to work harder and cannot be helped by studying alone.

Finally, I also make effort to study Paticca Samuppada and its detailed exposition. Because I think knowing "Yam kinci samudaya Dhammam, sabbam tam Nirodha Dhammanti" is one thing and realising it is another thing. And I will try meditate on it too in order to gain that Realization.

That's my current practice, it is a just personal experience.
Thank you for explaining. You seemed to imply you do not do sitting meditation. Are you doing mindfulness practices or anything like that? Do you do any kind of sitting practice whatsoever?
I do meditation too. Usually just after my chanting session. I usually pick one, for example: Buddhanussati (as in Mahanama sutta), Aniccasaññā (as in Girimananda Sutta), Anattasaññā (as in Girimananda Sutta), Asubhanussati (31 parts of body, as in MahaSatipatthana Sutta), and Metta Bhavana (as described in Visuddhi Magga).

However, I seldom do Anapanasati, maybe I should try.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
zan
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Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2016 1:57 pm

Re: What is does this mean? (Help needed for reaching streamenterer.)

Post by zan »

Ontheway wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 6:50 pm
zan wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 6:02 pm
Ontheway wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 4:25 pm

I am afraid I don't have much to share on this matter as I am still striving for Sotapanna Phala...

But let me share what I'm doing now.

Mainly I am using Ratana Sutta and Mahaparinibbana Sutta for guideline of Sotapanna attainment. I am now always reading, pondering, and revise again and again Suttas such as Anattalakkhana Sutta & Cula Saccaka Sutta. And also reading on Visuddhi Magga's Panna Bhumi Niddesa section. And frequently cross-questioning myself about 5 aggregates with Tilakkhana.
This is to tackle and utterly destroy any fragment of Sakkaya Ditthi (as well as other Micchaditthi such as Sassata Ditthi & Uccheda Ditthi) view that lingering around.

I will clear any doubt on Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha by researching their history, Suttas, and especially read "Buddhaguna, Dhammaguna, and Sanghaguna" together with their detailed exposition.

For Silabbata paramasa, this was easy because as soon as we have confidence towards the Dhamma and follow Buddha's teachings. Then automatically, all kinds of practice such as God worshipping, Mantra chanting, Offerings for spirits, Spiritual Yoga chakra, Praying to deities, Cow or dog asceticism, Fortune-telling, Asian Fengshui, Qigong, Bodhisattva worship, certain religious vows etc are all no longer attractive to me. For me, all of these are merely side ways that will never reach Nibbana.

But it is said in the Suttanta, to gain Sotapanna status, one must destroy three factors (above) and gain four factors through 4 factors.

1) To gain unwavering confidence to Buddha:
This I think mere Pariyatti wasn't enough. So I will practice Buddhanussati for it too.

2) To gain unwavering confidence to Dhamma:
Similar as above

3) To gain unwavering confidence to Sangha:
Similar as above

4) To have virtues like this: “And he possesses virtues that are dear to the Noble Ones, complete and perfect, spotless and pure, which are liberating, praised by the wise, uninfluenced (by worldly concerns), and favorable to concentration of mind." From what I understand, for layperson like us, it would be the 5 Precepts. But it is not merely taking the precepts one or two day, or on special days. It is to make these 5 precepts as a natural habit. So this is where I need to work harder and cannot be helped by studying alone.

Finally, I also make effort to study Paticca Samuppada and its detailed exposition. Because I think knowing "Yam kinci samudaya Dhammam, sabbam tam Nirodha Dhammanti" is one thing and realising it is another thing. And I will try meditate on it too in order to gain that Realization.

That's my current practice, it is a just personal experience.
Thank you for explaining. You seemed to imply you do not do sitting meditation. Are you doing mindfulness practices or anything like that? Do you do any kind of sitting practice whatsoever?
I do meditation too. Usually just after my chanting session. I usually pick one, for example: Buddhanussati (as in Mahanama sutta), Aniccasaññā (as in Girimananda Sutta), Anattasaññā (as in Girimananda Sutta), Asubhanussati (31 parts of body, as in MahaSatipatthana Sutta), and Metta Bhavana (as described in Visuddhi Magga).

However, I seldom do Anapanasati, maybe I should try.
It is refreshing and inspiring to hear someone doing these oft forgotten practices. Thank you for sharing.
Assume all of my words on dhamma could be incorrect. Seek an arahant for truth.


"If we base ourselves on the Pali Nikayas, then we should be compelled to conclude that Buddhism is realistic. There is no explicit denial anywhere of the external world. Nor is there any positive evidence to show that the world is mind-made or simply a projection of subjective thoughts. That Buddhism recognizes the extra-mental existence of matter and the external world is clearly suggested by the texts. Throughout the discourses it is the language of realism that one encounters.
-Y. Karunadasa
Cause_and_Effect
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Re: What is does this mean? (Help needed for reaching streamenterer.)

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

confusedlayman wrote: Fri Aug 13, 2021 4:11 am
Alino wrote: Fri Aug 13, 2021 3:16 am
confusedlayman wrote: Thu Aug 12, 2021 7:58 am did u say something in background dont change?
Yes, luminous, pure, calm, non-reactive, selfless, deep mind that provides refuge from changing phenomenas on the surface.
If we take refuge in it, we must be able to directly see and know phenomenas and khandhas as not me, not mine, not my self... and thus, being free from their influence and power.
I think we shuld not take refuge in it as that also changes
You need to have a point of observation, a reference from which to see change.
Without that you will be simply lost in proliferation, just like you can only see clearly the movement of clouds by standing still not while driving.
In the same way you should take your stand in the sense of the observer, the seemingly unchanging silent witness that is within and without all of our experinces and that can see the rise and fall of the aggregates.
Without this there is no practice.

When the time comes to let go of the observer itself, you will be near the end of the path.
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
Inedible
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Re: What is does this mean? (Help needed for reaching streamenterer.)

Post by Inedible »

Ontheway wrote: Thu Aug 12, 2021 4:38 am Is Jhanic attainment necessary for Sotapanna?
A Once Returner can still return here as a human. Even first Jhana would prevent this. The Nonreturner level requires Jhana.
Ontheway
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Re: What is does this mean? (Help needed for reaching streamenterer.)

Post by Ontheway »

Inedible wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 10:54 am
Ontheway wrote: Thu Aug 12, 2021 4:38 am Is Jhanic attainment necessary for Sotapanna?
A Once Returner can still return here as a human. Even first Jhana would prevent this. The Nonreturner level requires Jhana.
Thanks for info.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
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Tennok
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Re: What is does this mean? (Help needed for reaching streamenterer.)

Post by Tennok »

I think this sentence means, that our ability to follow the meditation object is supported - or forged - by our daily commitment. Sila in particular, and sense restraint. Living the Dhamma, being mindfull 24/24.

I think Ven. Buddhadasa listed numerable requirements for the anapanasati meditation in his book on this subject. And among them, there was lack of any moral transgressions.

For example, let's say I try to meditate one day after sleeping with my friend's wife. Gulit and remorse may result in hindrances - restless mind and ill will toward myself. Or sensual thoughts arising. And I can be afraid of revenge etc.

Coarse mind, addicted to strong sensations, will struggle to stay with a subtle meditation object. It needs to be refined and trained.

Perfect life makes meditation possible. Meditation makes perfect life possible.
Samsara is a catch 22.
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Re: What is does this mean? (Help needed for reaching streamenterer.)

Post by DooDoot »

Tennok wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 8:45 am I think Ven. Buddhadasa listed numerable requirements for the anapanasati meditation in his book on this subject. And among them, there was lack of any moral transgressions.
That book appears mostly a collection from various commentary texts. Since the English translation contains no references, it appears to be plagiarism.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Tennok
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Re: What is does this mean? (Help needed for reaching streamenterer.)

Post by Tennok »

DooDoot wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 8:48 am That book appears mostly a collection from various commentary texts. Since the English translation contains no references, it appears to be plagiarism.
Interesting. I remember those lists in first part of book didn't seem like his usual writing. I thought it was taken from Vinnaya or some of monastery manuals. They are anonymous sometimes, at least I ve seen such unsigned materials.

Perhaps it is plagiarysm. But if Buddhadasa provided us with some valuable, practical instructions about meditation, otherwise unavilable in English, I won't complain.
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Re: What is does this mean? (Help needed for reaching streamenterer.)

Post by Mr. Seek »

I'd suggest the Sandha Sutta in AN.

https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/AN/AN11_10.html
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