MN 149 Mahāsaḷāyatanika Sutta. ariyo aṭṭhaṅgiko maggo bhāvanāpāripūriṃ gacchati

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sphairos
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MN 149 Mahāsaḷāyatanika Sutta. ariyo aṭṭhaṅgiko maggo bhāvanāpāripūriṃ gacchati

Post by sphairos »

Hi everyone,

There is an interesting passage in this sutta that I don't find any parallels to.

(Tr. Ven. Bodhi)

9. “Bhikkhus, when one knows and sees the eye as it actually
is,1340 when one knows and sees forms as they actually are, when
one knows and sees eye-consciousness as it actually is, when one
knows and sees eye-contact as it actually is, when one knows
and sees as it actually is [the feeling] felt as pleasant or painful or
neither-painful-nor-pleasant that arises with eye-contact as condition,
then one is not inflamed by lust for the eye, for forms, for
eye-consciousness, for eye-contact, for [the feeling] felt as pleasant
or painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant that arises with
eye-contact as condition.

“When one abides uninflamed by lust, unfettered, uninfatuated,
contemplating danger, then the five aggregates affected
by clinging are diminished for oneself in the future; and one’s
craving—which brings renewal of being, is accompanied by
delight and lust, and delights in this or that—is abandoned.
One’s bodily and mental troubles are abandoned, one’s bodily
and mental torments are abandoned, one’s bodily and mental
fevers are abandoned, [289] and one experiences bodily and
mental pleasure.

10. “The view of a person such as this is right view. His intention
is right intention, his effort is right effort, his mindfulness is
right mindfulness, his concentration is right concentration. But
his bodily action, his verbal action, and his livelihood have
already been well purified earlier.1341 Thus this Noble Eightfold
Path comes to fulfilment in him by development.
When he
develops this Noble Eightfold Path, the four foundations of
mindfulness also come to fulfilment in him by development; the
four right kinds of striving also come to fulfilment in him by
development; the four bases for spiritual power also come to
fulfilment in him by development; the five faculties also come to
fulfilment in him by development; the five powers also come to
fulfilment in him by development; the seven enlightenment factors
also come to fulfilment in him by development. These two
things—serenity and insight—occur in him yoked evenly
together.1342 He fully understands by direct knowledge those
things that should be fully understood by direct knowledge. He
abandons by direct knowledge those things that should be abandoned
by direct knowledge. He develops by direct knowledge

those things that should be developed by direct knowledge. He
realises by direct knowledge those things that should be realised
by direct knowledge.


Ven. Bodhi gives a footnote 1341:

1341 The eight factors of the path mentioned here seem to
pertain to the preliminary or mundane portion of the
path. M≥ identifies them with the factors possessed by a
person at the highest level of insight development,
immediately prior to the emergence of the supramundane
path.
In this stage only the former five path factors
are actively operative, the three factors of the morality
group having been purified prior to the undertaking of
insight meditation. But when the supramundane path
arises, all eight factors occur simultaneously, the three
factors of the morality group exercising the function of
eradicating the defilements responsible for moral transgression
in speech, action, and livelihood.


I don't fully understand it. I am interested how is it that the Right Action, Right Speech and Right Livelihood "reappear" when "this Noble Eightfold
Path comes to fulfilment in him by development"? Is it about Supramundane, lokuttara, factors? I haven't yet checked the commentaries.

Also, are there other similar suttas/passages?

I find the phrase "ariyo aṭṭhaṅgiko maggo bhāvanāpāripūriṃ gacchati" only in this sutta (in meaningful context).
How good and wonderful are your days,
How true are your ways?
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DooDoot
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Re: MN 149 Mahāsaḷāyatanika Sutta. ariyo aṭṭhaṅgiko maggo bhāvanāpāripūriṃ gacchati

Post by DooDoot »

sphairos wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 10:44 pm 10. “The view of a person such as this is right view. His intention
is right intention, his effort is right effort, his mindfulness is
right mindfulness, his concentration is right concentration. But
his bodily action, his verbal action, and his livelihood have
already been well purified earlier.1341 Thus this Noble Eightfold
Path comes to fulfilment in him by development.
When he
develops this Noble Eightfold Path, the four foundations of
mindfulness also come to fulfilment in him by development;
Personally, even though i am not adept at Pali, I question the above translation because I believe what is said in MN 149 can apply to stream-enterers (refer to AN 3.86 about the various levels of development). Therefore, I would ask why my following translation is wrong:
DooDoot wrote: 10. “The view of a person such as this is right view. His intention
is right intention, his effort is right effort, his mindfulness is
right mindfulness, his concentration is right concentration. But
his bodily action, his verbal action, and his livelihood have
already been well purified earlier. Thus this Noble Eightfold
Path goes towards fulfilment in him by development.
When he
develops this Noble Eightfold Path, the four foundations of
mindfulness also go towards fulfilment in him by development;

And these two qualities proceed in conjunction:
Tassime dve dhammā yuganandhā vattanti—

serenity and discernment.
samatho ca vipassanā ca.
Keep in mind, if the Path is being "developed" then this cannot be "fulfilment".
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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DooDoot
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Re: MN 149 Mahāsaḷāyatanika Sutta. ariyo aṭṭhaṅgiko maggo bhāvanāpāripūriṃ gacchati

Post by DooDoot »

sphairos wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 10:44 pm Ven. Bodhi gives a footnote 1341:

1341 The eight factors of the path mentioned here seem to
pertain to the preliminary or mundane portion of the
path. M≥ identifies them with the factors possessed by a
person at the highest level of insight development,
immediately prior to the emergence of the supramundane
path. In this stage only the former five path factors
are actively operative, the three factors of the morality
group having been purified prior to the undertaking of
insight meditation. But when the supramundane path
arises, all eight factors occur simultaneously, the three
factors of the morality group exercising the function of
eradicating the defilements responsible for moral transgression
in speech, action, and livelihood.
I find the above very strange; particularly the reference to "mundane". For me, MN 149 appears to merely say when you are actually practising meditation, only five path factors are operating.

For example, the excerpt below is not related to morality therefore morality does not need to be mentioned:
MN 149 wrote:When you do truly know and see the eye, sights, eye consciousness, eye contact, and what is felt as pleasant, painful, or neutral that arises conditioned by eye contact, you’re not aroused by desire for these things. Someone who lives unaroused like this—unfettered, unconfused, concentrating on drawbacks—disperses the the five grasping aggregates for themselves in the future.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
Pulsar
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Re: MN 149 Mahāsaḷāyatanika Sutta. ariyo aṭṭhaṅgiko maggo bhāvanāpāripūriṃ gacchati

Post by Pulsar »

Dear sphairos: I love this passage but I cannot understand
why one unfettered would contemplate danger i.e.
contemplating danger,
Is there a need to cotemplate danger, once you are past all danger? uninflamed by lust, unfettered, uninfatuated,
“When one abides uninflamed by lust, unfettered, uninfatuated,
contemplating danger, then the five aggregates affected
by clinging are diminished for oneself in the future; and one’s
craving—which brings renewal of being, is accompanied by
delight and lust, and delights in this or that—is abandoned.
One’s bodily and mental troubles are abandoned, one’s bodily
and mental torments are abandoned, one’s bodily and mental
fevers are abandoned, [289] and one experiences bodily and
mental pleasure.
Other than that, the verse seems fine. For one unfettered, what reason is there for aggregates to arise?
I think the sentence in English is clumsily written.
During 4th jhana or in the Arahant, there is no arising of anything
including aggregates.
You wrote
I don't fully understand it. I am interested how is it that the Right Action, Right Speech and Right Livelihood "reappear" when "this Noble Eightfold
Path comes to fulfilment in him by development"? Is it about Supramundane, lokuttara, factors?
Where does the sutta say Right action, R. speech and R. livelihood reappear? Once penetrated, what is there to reappear? I don't quite get the question. Pali of suttas are clumsily written on occasion, I hear scholars complain,(BB + Sujato) The misunderstanding may be due to that. Once penetrated, say by the Buddha or an Arahant, he is really done with the path, has crossed over. Does the word supra mundane even apply to the Arahant? I think not.
Supra mundane might be for the one who has gained the Dhamma eye, say for Sotapanna, and his/her path onwards, still negotiating, still advancing.
Also, are there other similar suttas/passages?
You asked.
Similar in relation to 37 factors, is that what you are asking? If so yes, not the entire quote as such in one segment, but fragments of it appear here and there, in the sutta pitaka.
Best! :candle:
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