Share your classical Theravada (Please no non classical views. Wrong subforum) views on this post

Exploring the Dhamma, as understood from the perspective of the ancient Pali commentaries.
zan
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Re: Share your classical Theravada (please no non classical views. Wrong subforum) views on this post

Post by zan »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 6:42 am
zan wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 5:04 am
I choose to read it with a classical Theravada view, and from that view parinibbana, or Buddha, is death, in that death (true death, beyond samsara: parinibbana) is cessation of experience; extinction.

Then Ven. Maha Kotthita went to Ven. Sariputta and, on arrival, exchanged courteous greetings with him. After an exchange of friendly greetings & courtesies, he sat to one side. As he was sitting there, he said to Ven. Sariputta, “With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media [vision, hearing, smell, taste, touch, & intellection] is it the case that there is anything else?”

[Sariputta:] “Don’t say that, my friend.”

[Maha Kotthita:] “With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media, is it the case that there is not anything else?”

[Sariputta:] “Don’t say that, my friend.”

[Maha Kotthita:] “…is it the case that there both is & is not anything else?”

[Sariputta:] “Don’t say that, my friend.”

[Maha Kotthita:] “…is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?”

[Sariputta:] “Don’t say that, my friend.”

[Maha Kotthita:] “Being asked if, with the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media, there is anything else, you say, ‘Don’t say that, my friend.’ Being asked if … there is not anything else … there both is & is not anything else … there neither is nor is not anything else, you say, ‘Don’t say that, my friend.’ Now, how is the meaning of your words to be understood?”

[Sariputta:] “The statement, ‘With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media [vision, hearing, smell, taste, touch, & intellection] is it the case that there is anything else?’ objectifies non-objectification. The statement, ‘… is it the case that there is not anything else … is it the case that there both is & is not anything else … is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?’ objectifies non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes. However far objectification goes, that is how far the six contact media go. With the remainderless fading & stopping of the six contact-media, there comes to be the stopping, the allaying of objectification.

https://suttacentral.net/an4.173/en/thanissaro
"The explanation of the word Nevidha given by the
Commentators is that an Arahanta who has reached the stage of
Arahatta-Phala. having no attachment to all rūpa-nama will not
be deemed to be abiding in this mundane world. After passing into
Parinibbāna - the last demise, as no new or fresh rūpa-nāma will
arise, he will have no future life existence and no other world for
him, the germ of existence having been perished with his death
(cuti). There is no more rebirths. Not having two worlds, nay, the
total extinction of the occurrence of fresh rūpa-nāma for being able
to get rid of all human passions, is what it called
"Anupādisesanibbāna." In other words, it is the complete
'extinction' of all kilesas - mental defilements and the liberation
from existence."

...



"All presently existing conditioned phenomena come to an end due to the destruction of death consciousness at the time of parinibbana, and because there is no volitional mind that can produce results, new phenomena do not arise but cease to exist. Thus, with the cessation of these two kinds of consciousness, all conditioned phenomena cease. This is like the cessation of the emission of light from an oil lamp whose oil and wick have been completely consumed."

-Mahasi Sayadaw, Manual of Insight

When the teachings explicitly say cessation, it will be improper to go beyond it and formulate an idea of a special kind of existence. Extinction points to nothing other than Nothingness.

-Mahasi Sayadaw, On the Nature of Nibbana
ces·sa·tion
/seˈsāSH(ə)n/

noun
the fact or process of ending or being brought to an end.
It is only with death-consciousness of
the Arahat that the proximity condition no longer functions ; for
since no new mental group will ever arise again, there is no more
rebirth in any plane of existence, i.e. materiality and mentality will
never manifest themselves again.
- the Dhatukatha, preface by U Narada
This is from Manual of Insight page 460 quoting The Udana and the Itivuttaka:
These two Nibbana-elements were made known by the Seeing One, stable and unattached: One is the element seen here and now with residue, but with the cord of being destroyed; the other, having no residue for the future, is that wherein all modes of being utterly cease. Having understood the unconditioned state, released in mind with the cord of being destroyed, they have attained to the Dhamma-essence. Delighting in the destruction (of craving), those stable ones have abandoned all being.
There are only 89 or 121 possible consciousnesses that exist according to the Abhidhamma. None of which are permanent, and none of which are outside the five aggregates.

-Abhidhammattha Sangaha chapters I-V

For him who has attained the stage of the arahat, there will be cuti-citta, but it will not be succeeded by patisandhi-citta.
- Nina Van Gorkom


In the process of death, according to the Abhidhamma, a person will experience cuti citta and then patisandhi citta will arise which will be followed by sixteen moments of the bhavanga citta, seven javanas, and then the bhavanga arises again.

-paraphrased from the Abhidhammattha Sangaha translated by Bhikkhu Bodhi, Chapter V guide to 41

However, as Nina Van Gorkom is quoted as saying above, an Arahant will not have patisandhi citta arise. Because of this, citta ceases as it is completely impossible for it to continue. Without patisandhi, which does not arise due to lack of proximate cause, there is no proximate cause for bhavanga to arise and so, with the cessation of cuti citta we have utter and total cessation of citta. Or, put another way, an Arahants cuti citta is his/her last citta; since each citta is rising and falling rapidly anyway, we have one that rises and falls just like with all the others, except another one does not follow due to there being no proximate cause.
after the last consciousness of the Arahant, who has
abandoned arousing [future aggregates] and so prevented kamma from giving
result in a future [existence], there is no further arising of aggregates of existence,
and those already arisen have disappeared.

-Visuddhimagga ch XVI paragraph 73
Nibbāna Offers No Sense-objects
In the absence of mind, matter, consciousness, concomitants, etc., There can be no sense-objects, and in the absence of sense-objects no opportunities arise for mental formations to play their part. Nibbāna means the end of suffering. Since there are no primary elements and no mind and matter, everything ceases, and this cessation means eternal peace. All sufferings end.
-Venerable Mahasi Sayadaw, On the Nature of Nibbana
Absence of Mind and Matter in Nibbāna
In nibbāna there are no such things as mind or mental concomitants, which can be met with in the sense-sphere or form-sphere. It naturally follows that mind and matter that belong to the thirty-one planes of existence are totally absent in nibbāna. However, some would like to propose that after the parinibbāna of the Buddha and the Arahants, they acquire a special kind of mind and matter in nibbāna. Such an extraordinary way of thinking may appeal to those who cannot do away with self or ego.

With regard to this proposition a learned Sayādaw reasoned that if there is a special kind of mind and matter in nibbāna, there must also be a special kind of rebirth which gives rise to a special kind of old age, disease, and death, which in turn bring about a special kind of sorrow, lamentation, suffering, distress, and despair. When the teachings explicitly say cessation, it will be improper to go beyond it and formulate an idea of a special kind of existence. Extinction points to nothing other than Nothingness. Nibbāna, which is not involved in mind and matter, cannot be made to get involved either in this world or in other worlds.
Assume all of my words on dhamma could be incorrect. Look to an arahant for total accuracy and confirmation.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Share your classical Theravada (please no non classical views. Wrong subforum) views on this post

Post by Ceisiwr »

zan wrote: Mon Dec 28, 2020 2:16 am
...
And none of that means that at the exhaustion of life for the Arahant there isn’t anything else.
“When your last breath arrives, Grammar can do nothing.”

Ādi Śaṅkarācāryaḥ
zan
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Re: Share your classical Theravada (please no non classical views. Wrong subforum) views on this post

Post by zan »

Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Dec 28, 2020 2:41 am
zan wrote: Mon Dec 28, 2020 2:16 am
...
And none of that means that at the exhaustion of life for the Arahant there isn’t anything else.
"Nibbāna means the end of suffering. Since there are no primary elements and no mind and matter, everything ceases"

...

"When the teachings explicitly say cessation, it will be improper to go beyond it and formulate an idea of a special kind of existence. Extinction points to nothing other than Nothingness.
-Mahasi Sayadaw, On the Nature of Nibbana
Notice that the Venerable uses two terms in reference to "nothingness" above (earlier post in this thread); "the realm of nothingness" and "nothingness". The former he associates with the realms of existence, the latter he associates with extinction. The word "nothingness" being used to explain "extinction" leaves no room to interpret parinibbana as some kind of experience. That and the fact that the Venerable clearly delineates and specifies that all types of consciousness, existence, experience, etc. utterly cease at parinibbana (he uses "extinction" to denote parinibanna).

If those don't mean there isn't anything else to you then we have fundamentally different understandings of the English language and there's no reason to further this conversation.
Best wishes and much metta.
Assume all of my words on dhamma could be incorrect. Look to an arahant for total accuracy and confirmation.
pegembara
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Re: Share your classical Theravada (please no non classical views. Wrong subforum) views on this post

Post by pegembara »

zan wrote: Mon Dec 28, 2020 12:08 am
So unless I'm misreading you it seems like we're in total agreement on this issue. Namely that parinibbana is not an experience of any kind. Rather it is the cessation of all experience.
Yes. The cessation of all experience(nirodha) is Nibbana and the permanent extinction is Parinibbana.
"This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications, the relinquishment of all acquisitions, the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Nibbana"
"How would you answer if you are thus asked: A monk, a worthy one, with no more mental effluents: what is he on the break-up of the body, after death?"

"Thus asked, I would answer, 'Form is inconstant... Feeling... Perception... Fabrications... Consciousness is inconstant. That which is inconstant is stressful. That which is stressful has ceased and gone to its end."

Saṃyutta Nikāya 22.85
Yamaka Sutta
“One perception arose and another perception ceased in me: ‘The cessation of existence is nibbāna; the cessation of existence is nibbāna.’ Just as, when a fire of twigs is burning, one flame arises and another flame ceases, so one perception arose and another perception ceased in me: ‘The cessation of existence is nibbāna; the cessation of existence is nibbāna.’ On that occasion, friend, I was percipient: ‘The cessation of existence is nibbāna.’”

https://suttacentral.net/an10.7/en/bodhi
Cessation of experience is same extinguishment of the fire
"Bhikkhus, all is burning. And what is the all that is burning?

"The eye is burning, forms are burning, eye-consciousness is burning, eye-contact is burning, also whatever is felt as pleasant or painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant that arises with eye-contact for its indispensable condition, that too is burning. Burning with what? Burning with the fire of lust, with the fire of hate, with the fire of delusion. I say it is burning with birth, aging and death, with sorrows, with lamentations, with pains, with griefs, with despairs.

"The ear is burning, sounds are burning...

"The nose is burning, odors are burning...

"The tongue is burning, flavors are burning...

"The body is burning, tangibles are burning...

"The mind is burning,

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .nymo.html
Last edited by pegembara on Mon Dec 28, 2020 3:48 am, edited 2 times in total.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Share your classical Theravada (please no non classical views. Wrong subforum) views on this post

Post by Ceisiwr »

zan wrote: Mon Dec 28, 2020 2:51 am
...
Nibbana is cessation. The total end of conditioned phenomena. What happens after that can’t be spoken of, since it’s beyond concepts and words. Something else doesn’t apply. Nothing else doesn’t apply. If the venerable is arguing that in final Nibbana there is nothing else then he has adopted the wrong view of the Sautrāntikas. It’s as wrong as saying that there is something else.
“When your last breath arrives, Grammar can do nothing.”

Ādi Śaṅkarācāryaḥ
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Ontheway
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Re: Share your classical Theravada (Please no non classical views. Wrong subforum) views on this post

Post by Ontheway »

Both Sassatavada and Ucchedavada wrong views were discarded by classical Theravada teachings.
“Good, good, Anuradha! Formerly, Anuradha, and also now, I make known just suffering and the cessation of suffering.” - SN 22.86
There is no doer of a deed
Or one who reaps the deed’s result;
Phenomena alone flow on—
No other view than this is right.

-Vism XIX.20
"The Buddha is like the rising sun; the Dhamma as already stated is like the web of his rays; and the Sangha is like the world rid by him of darkness."

Paramatthajotikā
(The Illustrator of Ultimate Meaning)
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robertk
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Re: Share your classical Theravada (Please no non classical views. Wrong subforum) views on this post

Post by robertk »

Ontheway wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 12:56 pm Both Sassatavada and Ucchedavada wrong views were discarded by classical Theravada teachings.
“Good, good, Anuradha! Formerly, Anuradha, and also now, I make known just suffering and the cessation of suffering.” - SN 22.86
There is no doer of a deed
Or one who reaps the deed’s result;
Phenomena alone flow on—
No other view than this is right.

-Vism XIX.20
I like how Vism and sutta aligned well here in these excerpts you found. :sage:
http://www.abhidhamma.org
https://dhamma.discoursehosting.net/
https://www.youtube.com/user/AlanWeller
MN 26 Pāsarāsisuttaṃ
Pāli: So kho ahaṃ, bhikkhave, tāvatakeneva oṭṭhapahatamattena lapitalāpanamattena ñāṇavādañca vadāmi theravādañca, ‘jānāmi passāmī’ti ca paṭijānāmi ahañceva aññe ca.
Cmy: Theravādanti thirabhāvavādaṃ, thero ahametthāti etaṃ vacanaṃ.
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