deathless element?

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alan...
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deathless element?

Post by alan... »

so we can contemplate the four elements easily enough, but the suttas talk about contemplating the deathless element sometimes as if it's just another element.

i realize "the deathless" is a synonym for nibbana, nonetheless, is there some way outlined to contemplate it other than by reaching it fully through other practices?
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beeblebrox
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Re: deathless element?

Post by beeblebrox »

"Deathless" is a translation for the Pali word "amata." It's in the same construction as "anatta." (The "n" is added to the "a-" prefix before a vowel.)

I think people usually read the "deathless element" as an element which doesn't die... but I think it might be inaccurate.

Another way of reading it might be that it's an element which has nothing to do with death, or doesn't have the "death" as a part of it... just like "all dhammas are anatta" means that these dhammas have nothing to do with self.

"Non-death element" might be a better translation.

That's just the way I see it at the moment... I might be wrong.

:anjali:
Gena1480
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Re: deathless element?

Post by Gena1480 »

deathless element is what is unborn,unbecoming,uncondition
you study the depending origination
contemplate this / that conditionality
when this arises /that arises
when this cease /that cease
now this two cases are this /that conditionality
for example with arisesing of this becoming /arises that birth.
now for contemplating the unbecoming and unbirth.
when this is not , that is not
when there is, just this no becoming , there is just that no birth.
when there not, what is requisite condition, there is not requisite condition
as you know that in depending origination all are requisite condition
or when there is not requisite condition, there is not what depends on that requisite condition(which is requisite condition itself)
seeing this/ that conditionally
now to see all twelve link of conditioning for what they are much harder as each condition represent different conditioning
if anybody would point me in direction where each condition explain in relation of conditioning itself
because 12 condition are very deep
for example when there is 3 conditions there is contact or the meting of 3 conditions.
metta
Goob
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Re: deathless element?

Post by Goob »

Ven. Thanissaro in some of his talks implies that the suttas talk of nirvana both as an element and as something beyond space and time and that the meaning of this is that even though Nirvana lies beyond it all "it" can still be "experienced" and that this is what the suttas mentioning it as an element talk about.

I could be wrong though.
alan...
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Re: deathless element?

Post by alan... »

Gena1480 wrote:deathless element is what is unborn,unbecoming,uncondition
you study the depending origination
contemplate this / that conditionality
when this arises /that arises
when this cease /that cease
now this two cases are this /that conditionality
for example with arisesing of this becoming /arises that birth.
now for contemplating the unbecoming and unbirth.
when this is not , that is not
when there is, just this no becoming , there is just that no birth.
when there not, what is requisite condition, there is not requisite condition
as you know that in depending origination all are requisite condition
or when there is not requisite condition, there is not what depends on that requisite condition(which is requisite condition itself)
seeing this/ that conditionally
now to see all twelve link of conditioning for what they are much harder as each condition represent different conditioning
if anybody would point me in direction where each condition explain in relation of conditioning itself
because 12 condition are very deep
for example when there is 3 conditions there is contact or the meting of 3 conditions.
metta
interesting thanks.
alan...
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Re: deathless element?

Post by alan... »

richard_rca wrote:Ven. Thanissaro in some of his talks implies that the suttas talk of nirvana both as an element and as something beyond space and time and that the meaning of this is that even though Nirvana lies beyond it all "it" can still be "experienced" and that this is what the suttas mentioning it as an element talk about.

I could be wrong though.
that makes sense. thanks.
Gena1480
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Re: deathless element?

Post by Gena1480 »

alan i would like to point you
to the first sermon
about the four noble truth
when the Buddha describes the four noble truth
one of the person listening see the Dhamma
try to understand how from listening to this Dhamma
one has an understanding
as the sutta describes
in one of the disciple
the understanding arise
what ever subject to origination is all subject to cessation.
in other words
that which gives rise to it, gives cease to it
the sutta talk about craving but i would like talk about formation(kamma)
with just this origination(formating) give rise to suffering
but when formed,cessation, end of suffering
it is just this formation that gave origination and cessation
why because they are of the same nature
as for deathless element
when there is not birth(unborn)/there is not of this death(deathless)
as you see that here in sentence above there is no this/that conditionality.
why because there no requisite condition or what is being condition. (that why it is unconditon)
because there is this unbecome,unborn/undeath(deathless) there is an escape from becoming/born(birth)/death.
contemplate what gives rise to it, gives cease to it
metta
gannuman
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Re: deathless element?

Post by gannuman »

This discussion is very interesting! So, the deathless element is to be understood as that which is never born.

Birth and death are conceptual fabrications because without that conceptualisation there is no discernment of birth nor death, this or that, me or mine or other, no becoming nor coming nor going. That said, would anyone agree that the deathless element might refer to the unconceptual mind? The mind that sees just the seen in the seeing, the heard in the hearing, etc. The mind that doesn't fabricate "things" out of empty experiences. Thus, the deathless element is not a thing in itself but rather a condition where the mind doesn't cognise "thingness" or that, putting it in another way, cognises only emptiness. It's when "consciousness doesn't land", meaning that the mind doesn't cognise any "thing" (or "sign") for consciousness to land on and be engrossed about, because "thingness" is a belief in something lasting and with an inherent nature, something concrete and objective. Whatever cognition of "something" could not be the deathless element because all "somethings" are put-together and impermanent. Thus the deathless element is the absence of "something" and not "something that is undying".

Phew!

Okay, what do you wonderful buddhists think? Where might I be going wrong with this? This conceptual framework was influenced by Zen teachings, but evidence for it can be found on the Pali Suttas.

:sage:
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Ceisiwr
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Re: deathless element?

Post by Ceisiwr »

The Vism. has a section on how to meditate on nibbana, as a recollection. I’ll dig it up.
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Wed Sep 23, 2020 10:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“No one in the world, Dhotaka,
can I release from doubting.
But knowing the most excellent Dhamma,
you will cross over the flood."


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Ceisiwr
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Re: deathless element?

Post by Ceisiwr »

gannuman
That said, would anyone agree that the deathless element might refer to the unconceptual mind?
No, it’s not the mind. Nibbana is an external dhamma that is unconditioned, permanent and absolutely endless. It exists right now but we just can’t see it, like the moon when obscured by clouds. It’s cognised at the mind base when the defilements which obscure it are “blown away”, thus revealing the truth.
“No one in the world, Dhotaka,
can I release from doubting.
But knowing the most excellent Dhamma,
you will cross over the flood."


Mettagūmāṇavapucchā
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rightviewftw
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Re: deathless element?

Post by rightviewftw »

Based on the sutta one can assume that when one contemplates what one arrives at by reasoning this is his perception at the time. Ie One who contemplates death develops maranasanna, breath is perception of breathing or things tied up to breathing. In course of inference one might come to think about the principle of the cessation in various contexts.
19. Perception of dispassion
“And what, Ānanda, is the perception of dispassion? Here, having gone to the forest, to the root of a tree, or to an empty hut, a bhikkhu reflects thus: ‘This is peaceful, this is sublime, that is, the stilling of all activities, the relinquishment of all acquisitions, the destruction of craving, dispassion, nibbāna.’ This is called the perception of dispassion.

20. Perception of cessation
“And what, Ānanda, is the perception of cessation? Here, having gone to the forest, to the root of a tree, or to an empty hut, a bhikkhu reflects thus: ‘This is peaceful, this is sublime, that is, the stilling of all activities, the relinquishment of all acquisitions, the destruction of craving, cessation, nibbāna.’ This is called the perception of cessation
Deathless or Nibbana, the destruction of greed, anger & delusion is spoken of in that way. One might come to contemplate the principle of dukkha-cessation as the highest good, thinking that only this is peaceful & pleasant. One might come to think of it as a release, as a stilling, a fading, relinquishment, removal, destruction, unmade, deathless, extinguishment etc.

There are some other possible interpretations but not very convincing imo.
'Bhikkhus, possessing three qualities, a bhikkhu is practicing the unmistaken way and has laid the groundwork for the destruction of the taints. What three? Here, a bhikkhu guards the doors of the sense faculties, observes moderation in eating, and is intent on wakefulness. He should develop perception of unattractiveness so as to abandon lust... good will so as to abandon ill will... mindfulness of in-&-out breathing so as to cut off distractive thinking... the perception of inconstancy so as to uproot the conceit, 'I am.
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Crazy cloud
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Re: deathless element?

Post by Crazy cloud »

Ask: Am I aware? - Yes!
Away with past and future - Yes!
Say out loud with generous spaces between every word: I am a human being
Ask yourself: What is between the words? - Conciousness/stillness/awareness!
Ask yourself: What is the essence of that awareness? - Experience!
What is the essence of experience? - Knowing!
How many deaths where to find in that knowing essence? - None!
So, what is knowing? - Deathless element!

Ideathlessamdeathlessadeathlesshumandeathlessbeingdeathless ...
If you didn't care
What happened to me
And I didn't care for you

We would zig-zag our way
Through the boredom and pain
Occasionally glancing up through the rain

Wondering which of the
Buggers to blame
And watching for pigs on the wing
- Roger Waters
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confusedlayman
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Re: deathless element?

Post by confusedlayman »

Crazy cloud wrote: Thu Sep 24, 2020 10:16 am Ask: Am I aware? - Yes!
Away with past and future - Yes!
Say out loud with generous spaces between every word: I am a human being
Ask yourself: What is between the words? - Conciousness/stillness/awareness!
Ask yourself: What is the essence of that awareness? - Experience!
What is the essence of experience? - Knowing!
How many deaths where to find in that knowing essence? - None!
So, what is knowing? - Deathless element!

Ideathlessamdeathlessadeathlesshumandeathlessbeingdeathless ...
knowing element is off when deep sleep or coma... so knowing element has orgination due to cause and condition and cessation... clinging to knowing element is highly dangerous and fall in to personality error
dont think
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Crazy cloud
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Re: deathless element?

Post by Crazy cloud »

confusedlayman wrote: Thu Sep 24, 2020 11:13 am
Crazy cloud wrote: Thu Sep 24, 2020 10:16 am Ask: Am I aware? - Yes!
Away with past and future - Yes!
Say out loud with generous spaces between every word: I am a human being
Ask yourself: What is between the words? - Conciousness/stillness/awareness!
Ask yourself: What is the essence of that awareness? - Experience!
What is the essence of experience? - Knowing!
How many deaths where to find in that knowing essence? - None!
So, what is knowing? - Deathless element!

Ideathlessamdeathlessadeathlesshumandeathlessbeingdeathless ...
knowing element is off when deep sleep or coma... so knowing element has orgination due to cause and condition and cessation... clinging to knowing element is highly dangerous and fall in to personality error
Nope, you might be off, or maybe dreaming that you walks the streets of Calcutta. Conciousness is not dreaming, but waits for you in your own bed. If there wasn't this non-dimensional knowing, how could you escape the condioned world or Samsara?
What's more dangerous is to make dhamma something very advanced, debating reality with other doubters, and waste precious time here in this forum.
If you didn't care
What happened to me
And I didn't care for you

We would zig-zag our way
Through the boredom and pain
Occasionally glancing up through the rain

Wondering which of the
Buggers to blame
And watching for pigs on the wing
- Roger Waters
Srilankaputra
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Re: deathless element?

Post by Srilankaputra »

“If, Ānanda, they were to ask you: ‘Friend Ānanda, what are the things of which an arising was discerned, a vanishing was discerned, an alteration of that which stands was discerned? What are the things of which an arising will be discerned, a vanishing will be discerned, an alteration of that which stands will be discerned? What are the things of which an arising is discerned, a vanishing is discerned, an alteration of that which stands is discerned?’—being asked thus, Ānanda, how would you answer?”

“Venerable sir, if they were to ask me this, I would answer thus: ‘Friends, with form that has passed, ceased, changed, an arising was discerned, a vanishing was discerned, an alteration of that which stands was discerned. With feeling … perception … volitional formations … consciousness that has passed, ceased, changed, an arising was discerned, a vanishing was discerned, an alteration of that which stands was discerned. It is of these things, friends, that an arising was discerned, that a vanishing was discerned, that an alteration of that which stands was discerned.

“‘Friends, with form that has not been born, not become manifest, an arising will be discerned, a vanishing will be discerned, an alteration of that which stands will be discerned. With feeling … perception … volitional formations … consciousness that has not been born, not become manifest, an arising will be discerned, a vanishing will be discerned, an alteration of that which stands will be discerned. It is of these things, friends, that an arising will be discerned, that a vanishing will be discerned, that an alteration of that which stands will be discerned.

“‘Friends, with form that has been born, that has become manifest, an arising is discerned, a vanishing is discerned, an alteration of that which stands is discerned. With feeling … perception … volitional formations … consciousness that has been born, that has become manifest, an arising is discerned, a vanishing is discerned, an alteration of that which stands is discerned. It is of these things, friends, that an arising is discerned, that a vanishing is discerned, that an alteration of that which stands is discerned.’

“Being asked thus, venerable sir, I would answer in such a way.”

“Good, good, Ānanda!”
https://suttacentral.net/sn22.38/en/bodhi

Conditioned is death. Deathless is that, which is experienced as perfect peace, letting go of all that is conditioned.

Tañhi, bhikkhu, musā yaṃ mosadhammaṃ, taṃ saccaṃ yaṃ amosadhammaṃ nibbānaṃ.

Tasmā evaṃ samannāgato bhikkhu iminā 
paramena saccādhiṭṭhānena samannāgato hoti.

Etañhi, bhikkhu, paramaṃ ariyasaccaṃ yadidaṃ

amosadhammaṃ nibbānaṃ
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