Noble Conversation

Exploring the Dhamma, as understood from the perspective of the ancient Pali commentaries.
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Nicholas Weeks
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Noble Conversation

Post by Nicholas Weeks »

A subject worthy of pondering, practicing and applying to our postings here. These ten are aimed at monks and serious meditators, so it is an ideal for most of us.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/stud ... ation.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

From the Vaca Sutta:
Monks, a statement endowed with five factors is well-spoken, not ill-spoken. It is blameless & unfaulted by knowledgeable people. Which five?

It is spoken at the right time. It is spoken in truth. It is spoken affectionately. It is spoken beneficially. It is spoken with a mind of goodwill.

A statement endowed with these five factors is well-spoken, not ill-spoken. It is blameless & unfaulted by knowledgeable people.
From the Vipaka Sutta:
Telling falsehoods — when indulged in, developed, & pursued — is something that leads to hell, leads to rebirth as a common animal, leads to the realm of the hungry shades. The slightest of all the results coming from telling falsehoods is that, when one becomes a human being, it leads to being falsely accused.

Divisive tale-bearing — when indulged in, developed, & pursued — is something that leads to hell, leads to rebirth as a common animal, leads to the realm of the hungry shades. The slightest of all the results coming from divisive tale-bearing is that, when one becomes a human being, it leads to the breaking of one's friendships.

Harsh speech — when indulged in, developed, & pursued — is something that leads to hell, leads to rebirth as a common animal, leads to the realm of the hungry shades. The slightest of all the results coming from harsh speech is that, when one becomes a human being, it leads to unappealing sounds.

Frivolous chattering — when indulged in, developed, & pursued — is something that leads to hell, leads to rebirth as a common animal, leads to the realm of the hungry shades. The slightest of all the results coming from frivolous chattering is that, when one becomes a human being, it leads to words that aren't worth taking to heart.
An anthology on Right Speech: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dham ... index.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Good and evil have no fixed form. It's as easy to turn from doing bad to doing good as it is to flip over the hand from the back to the palm. It's simply up to us to do it. Master Hsuan Hua.
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Nicholas Weeks
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Re: Noble Conversation

Post by Nicholas Weeks »

Quarrelsome debate - how to and how not to do it - from SN 22.3
"And how does one engage with people in quarrelsome debate? There is the case where a certain person is a fomenter of this kind of debate:

'You understand this doctrine & discipline? I'm the one who understands this doctrine & discipline. How could you understand this doctrine & discipline?
You're practicing wrongly. I'm practicing rightly.
What should be said first you said last. What should be said last you said first.
I'm being consistent. You're not.
What you took so long to think out has been refuted.
Your doctrine has been overthrown. You're defeated.
Go and try to salvage your doctrine, or extricate yourself if you can!'

This is how one engages with people in quarrelsome debate.

"And how does one not engage with people in quarrelsome debate? There is the case where a certain person is not a fomenter of this kind of debate:

'You understand this doctrine & discipline? I'm the one who understands this doctrine & discipline. How could you understand this doctrine & discipline?
You're practicing wrongly. I'm practicing rightly.
What should be said first you said last. What should be said last you said first.
I'm being consistent. You're not.
What you took so long to think out has been refuted.
Your doctrine has been overthrown. You're defeated.
Go and try to salvage your doctrine, or extricate yourself if you can!'

This is how one does not engage with people in quarrelsome debate.
Last edited by Nicholas Weeks on Fri Jan 09, 2009 3:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Good and evil have no fixed form. It's as easy to turn from doing bad to doing good as it is to flip over the hand from the back to the palm. It's simply up to us to do it. Master Hsuan Hua.
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retrofuturist
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Re: Noble Conversation

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
The criteria for deciding what is worth saying

[1] "In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be unfactual, untrue, unbeneficial (or: not connected with the goal), unendearing & disagreeable to others, he does not say them.

[2] "In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be factual, true, unbeneficial, unendearing & disagreeable to others, he does not say them.

[3] "In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be factual, true, beneficial, but unendearing & disagreeable to others, he has a sense of the proper time for saying them.

[4] "In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be unfactual, untrue, unbeneficial, but endearing & agreeable to others, he does not say them.

[5] "In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be factual, true, unbeneficial, but endearing & agreeable to others, he does not say them.

[6] "In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be factual, true, beneficial, and endearing & agreeable to others, he has a sense of the proper time for saying them. Why is that? Because the Tathagata has sympathy for living beings."
From MN 58 - Abhaya Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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stuka
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Re: Noble Conversation

Post by stuka »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,
The criteria for deciding what is worth saying

[1] "In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be unfactual, untrue, unbeneficial (or: not connected with the goal), unendearing & disagreeable to others, he does not say them.

[2] "In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be factual, true, unbeneficial, unendearing & disagreeable to others, he does not say them.

[3] "In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be factual, true, beneficial, but unendearing & disagreeable to others, he has a sense of the proper time for saying them.

[4] "In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be unfactual, untrue, unbeneficial, but endearing & agreeable to others, he does not say them.

[5] "In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be factual, true, unbeneficial, but endearing & agreeable to others, he does not say them.

[6] "In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be factual, true, beneficial, and endearing & agreeable to others, he has a sense of the proper time for saying them. Why is that? Because the Tathagata has sympathy for living beings."
From MN 58 - Abhaya Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Metta,
Retro. :)

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Eko Care
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Re: Noble Conversation

Post by Eko Care »

[3] "In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be factual, true, beneficial, but unendearing & disagreeable to others, he has a sense of the proper time for saying them
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