Sallekha Sutta Questions

Exploring the Dhamma, as understood from the perspective of the ancient Pali commentaries.
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Alobha
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Sallekha Sutta Questions

Post by Alobha »

The Sallekha Sutta (MN8) makes quite extensive use of comparing a noble one's discipline to "others".
e.g. (Bhikku Bodhi Translation)
"Now Cunda, here effacement should be practised by you: (1) Others will be cruel, we shall not be cruel here: effacement should be practised thus."
...
(44) Others will adhere to their own views, hold on to them tenaciously, and relinquish them with difficulty; we shall not adhere to our own views or hold on to them tenaciously but shall relinquish them easily: effacement should be practised thus."
I'm unsure about the meaning of this wording, especially "others will [...], we shall not [...]".
Is The Buddha telling Cunda that he should practice by repeating these attitudes in his mind and memorize them until they've become an internal standard? Are these 44 sentences meant as meditation subjects?
And is he advising Cunda that he should constantly remind himself of the fact that others "do it wrong" and that the noble one's disciples are better (because of the direct comparison)? What's the use of the direct comparison here and in general?
Is it suggested that to train the mind, one should regulary see how "wrong" others live but how much better oneself should do?

I don't know whether one should practice thinking in a way of "others lie but i won't, others kill but I won't, others will be of wrong speech but I won't" etc. or cut the comparisons and just go "I won't lie, I won't kill, I wont do wrong speech". Since "others" here would mean nonbuddhists, I'm unsure of the use and benefit of training the mind to focus on the differences between oneself and others(all nonbuddhists in this case).

Perhaps I'm just too dumb to understand most Suttas :( Most look just so obscure in their wording and I fail to understand how the sutta would be set into actual practice.

Another thing about the Sellakha Sutta: The Buddha gives examples how to train in avoidance ie by saying "one given to be uncelibate has celibacy by which to avoid it" or "one given to sloth and torpor has freedom from sloth and torpor by which to avoid it." I have no idea what is really meant here and how it related to practice. It's not like sensual lust can be avoided by flicking a switch in the head and activating celibacy. In the same way sloth and torpor can not be avoided by thinking "Oh will I will just be free from sloth and torpor now" and *boing* crisis averted ? Perhaps my experience is just very different and other people can do it like this?
santa100
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Re: Sallekha Sutta Questions

Post by santa100 »

Alobha wrote:Since "others" here would mean nonbuddhists, I'm unsure of the use and benefit of training the mind to focus on the differences between oneself and others(all nonbuddhists in this case).
I don't think that's what the Buddha meant. For even Buddhists who lie, kill, do wrong speech, etc. would still belong to the "Others" group. So "Others" here simply mean the group of people who lie, kill, do wrong speech, etc. while "we" mean those who do not.
About the sloth/torpor part, Ven. Bodhi's translation says:
Others will be overcome by sloth and torpor; we shall be free from sloth and torpor here — thus effacement can be done.
The resolve there is more than just wishful thinking. One needs to make strong resolve first and then apply the training of the 8NP to eventually be free from the hindrance. The same thing applies to other hindrances..
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JeffR
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Re: Sallekha Sutta Questions

Post by JeffR »

Alobha wrote:The Sallekha Sutta (MN8) makes quite extensive use of comparing a noble one's discipline to "others".
e.g. (Bhikku Bodhi Translation)
"Now Cunda, here effacement should be practised by you: (1) Others will be cruel, we shall not be cruel here: effacement should be practised thus."
...
(44) Others will adhere to their own views, hold on to them tenaciously, and relinquish them with difficulty; we shall not adhere to our own views or hold on to them tenaciously but shall relinquish them easily: effacement should be practised thus."
I'm unsure about the meaning of this wording, especially "others will [...], we shall not [...]".
Is The Buddha telling Cunda that he should practice by repeating these attitudes in his mind and memorize them until they've become an internal standard? Are these 44 sentences meant as meditation subjects?
And is he advising Cunda that he should constantly remind himself of the fact that others "do it wrong" and that the noble one's disciples are better (because of the direct comparison)? What's the use of the direct comparison here and in general?
Is it suggested that to train the mind, one should regulary see how "wrong" others live but how much better oneself should do?
...
The way I understand this phrasing is that it emphasizes NOT to follow the wrong practice of others. It's quite frequent that we hear people justifying improper actions by saying "others do it" (or even with greater ignorance: "everybody does it"). What the Buddha is saying is that, yes, others will do things this [wrong] way, we will not, we will stay with the virtuous lifestyle.

-Jeff
Therein what are 'six (types of) disrespect'? One dwells without respect, without deference for the Teacher; one dwells without respect, without deference for the Teaching; one dwells without respect, without deference for the Order; one dwells without respect, without deference for the precepts; one dwells without respect, without deference for heedfulness; one dwells without respect, without deference for hospitality. These are six (types of) disrespect.
:Vibh 945
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rhinoceroshorn
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Re: Sallekha Sutta Questions

Post by rhinoceroshorn »

JeffR wrote: Sun Jun 14, 2015 12:32 am
Alobha wrote:The Sallekha Sutta (MN8) makes quite extensive use of comparing a noble one's discipline to "others".
e.g. (Bhikku Bodhi Translation)
"Now Cunda, here effacement should be practised by you: (1) Others will be cruel, we shall not be cruel here: effacement should be practised thus."
...
(44) Others will adhere to their own views, hold on to them tenaciously, and relinquish them with difficulty; we shall not adhere to our own views or hold on to them tenaciously but shall relinquish them easily: effacement should be practised thus."
I'm unsure about the meaning of this wording, especially "others will [...], we shall not [...]".
Is The Buddha telling Cunda that he should practice by repeating these attitudes in his mind and memorize them until they've become an internal standard? Are these 44 sentences meant as meditation subjects?
And is he advising Cunda that he should constantly remind himself of the fact that others "do it wrong" and that the noble one's disciples are better (because of the direct comparison)? What's the use of the direct comparison here and in general?
Is it suggested that to train the mind, one should regulary see how "wrong" others live but how much better oneself should do?
...
The way I understand this phrasing is that it emphasizes NOT to follow the wrong practice of others. It's quite frequent that we hear people justifying improper actions by saying "others do it" (or even with greater ignorance: "everybody does it"). What the Buddha is saying is that, yes, others will do things this [wrong] way, we will not, we will stay with the virtuous lifestyle.

-Jeff
Hello Jeff, thank you for your post. It didn't occur to me when I read the sutta.
Indeed, societies have the seal of approval of the established culture to do certain things which are not really right.
It's dangerous to use a bunch of random people as a reference point to perform things in life. Who cares if a bunch of people lie? Should you lie too because they lie? What makes them especial for you to follow them? By this reasoning you see how hollow is blindly following what others do and not a well-established virtue. People change, the Dhamma doesn't.
Eyes downcast, not footloose,
senses guarded, with protected mind,
not oozing — not burning — with lust,
wander alone
like a rhinoceros.
Sutta Nipāta 1.3 - Khaggavisana Sutta
Image
See, Ānanda! All those conditioned phenomena have passed, ceased, and perished. So impermanent are conditions, so unstable are conditions, so unreliable are conditions. This is quite enough for you to become disillusioned, dispassionate, and freed regarding all conditions.
Dīgha Nikāya 17
sunnat
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Post by sunnat »

In adopting celibacy the underlying tendency for non-celibacy manifests.
By abandoning the delight or aversion reaction to the underlying tendencies they pass away.
Thus, "one given to be uncelibate has celibacy by which to avoid it".
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rhinoceroshorn
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Re:

Post by rhinoceroshorn »

sunnat wrote: Thu Sep 03, 2020 12:12 pm In adopting celibacy the underlying tendency for non-celibacy manifests.
By abandoning the delight or aversion reaction to the underlying tendencies they pass away.
Thus, "one given to be uncelibate has celibacy by which to avoid it".
Hi sunnat.
Yes. When you opt for one thing, you are avoiding the other. If you lie, you're avoiding the truth, if you do any harm to other person, you're avoiding harmlessness.
This a good perspective to remember when acting.
Eyes downcast, not footloose,
senses guarded, with protected mind,
not oozing — not burning — with lust,
wander alone
like a rhinoceros.
Sutta Nipāta 1.3 - Khaggavisana Sutta
Image
See, Ānanda! All those conditioned phenomena have passed, ceased, and perished. So impermanent are conditions, so unstable are conditions, so unreliable are conditions. This is quite enough for you to become disillusioned, dispassionate, and freed regarding all conditions.
Dīgha Nikāya 17
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Gwi
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Re: Sallekha Sutta Questions

Post by Gwi »

Alobha wrote: Wed Jun 10, 2015 12:05 pm The Sallekha Sutta (MN8) makes quite extensive use of comparing a noble one's discipline to "others".
e.g. (Bhikku Bodhi Translation)
"Now Cunda, here effacement should be practised by you: (1) Others will be cruel, we shall not be cruel here: effacement should be practised thus."
...
(44) Others will adhere to their own views, hold on to them tenaciously, and relinquish them with difficulty; we shall not adhere to our own views or hold on to them tenaciously but shall relinquish them easily: effacement should be practised thus."
I'm unsure about the meaning of this wording, especially "others will [...], we shall not [...]".
Is The Buddha telling Cunda that he should practice by repeating these attitudes in his mind and memorize them until they've become an internal standard? Are these 44 sentences meant as meditation subjects?
And is he advising Cunda that he should constantly remind himself of the fact that others "do it wrong" and that the noble one's disciples are better (because of the direct comparison)? What's the use of the direct comparison here and in general?
Is it suggested that to train the mind, one should regulary see how "wrong" others live but how much better oneself should do?

I don't know whether one should practice thinking in a way of "others lie but i won't, others kill but I won't, others will be of wrong speech but I won't" etc. or cut the comparisons and just go "I won't lie, I won't kill, I wont do wrong speech". Since "others" here would mean nonbuddhists, I'm unsure of the use and benefit of training the mind to focus on the differences between oneself and others(all nonbuddhists in this case).

Perhaps I'm just too dumb to understand most Suttas :( Most look just so obscure in their wording and I fail to understand how the sutta would be set into actual practice.

Another thing about the Sellakha Sutta: The Buddha gives examples how to train in avoidance ie by saying "one given to be uncelibate has celibacy by which to avoid it" or "one given to sloth and torpor has freedom from sloth and torpor by which to avoid it." I have no idea what is really meant here and how it related to practice. It's not like sensual lust can be avoided by flicking a switch in the head and activating celibacy. In the same way sloth and torpor can not be avoided by thinking "Oh will I will just be free from sloth and torpor now" and *boing* crisis averted ? Perhaps my experience is just very different and other people can do it like this?

That Suttå talks about "forgiveness of sins".
That is the way of "forgiveness of sins" in buddhism,
namely purification when committing "sins".
In other religion, sins are "washed" with
Certain water (certain rituals) or bathing in a river.
In buddhism, cleaned in this way (that Suttå).
Bahagia Tidak Harus Selalu Bersama

Dhammapadå 370
"Tinggalkanlah 5 (belantara) dan patahkan 5 (belenggu rendah),
Serta kembangkan 5 potensi (4 iddhipādā + 1 ussoḷhi).
Bhikkhu yang telah menaklukkan 5 kungkungan (belenggu tinggi),
Lebih layak disebut 'orang yang telah mengarungi air baih (saṃsārå)'."
bpallister
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Re: Sallekha Sutta Questions

Post by bpallister »

do you think my sins will ever be washed, Gwi?
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