The path of the dry-insight worker --- sukkhavipassaka

Exploring the Dhamma, as understood from the perspective of the ancient Pali commentaries.
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zerotime
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Re: The path of the dry-insight worker --- sukkhavipassaka

Post by zerotime »

Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Aug 10, 2020 5:39 pm It in the Visuddhimagga when discussing nirodha-samāpatti it also states:

(ii) Who attains it? (iii) Who do not attain it?
nirodha-samāpatti is an state commented like proper of jhana cultivation. From the knowledge of that full extinction later it should arise the knowledge of the anagami fruition or the arhant fruition:

"Then he again enters the next higher absorption, and thus, after each absorption practising insight, he at last reaches the state of neither-perception-nor-non-perception, and thereafter the full extinction. This state, according to the Com., may last for 7 days or even longer. Immediately at the rising from this state, however, there arises in the Anagami the fruition of Anagamiship (anagami-phala), in the Arahat the fruition of Arahantship (arahatta-phala)."
http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/n_ ... apatti.htm

this state is different from phala-samapatti in where there is arising of lokuttara cittas for nibbana and nibbana itself. In nirodha-samapatti there is complete cessation but no phala-samapatti.

Phala-samapatti and nibbana exist for all ariya while nirodha-samapatti seem to be specific for anagami and arhant under jhana cultivation. In case of bare-insight it seems anagami and arhants don't have stop or stability in nirodha-samapatti. I believe this is the sense of the explanation.
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Re: The path of the dry-insight worker --- sukkhavipassaka

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zerotime wrote: Tue Aug 11, 2020 2:48 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Aug 10, 2020 5:39 pm It in the Visuddhimagga when discussing nirodha-samāpatti it also states:

(ii) Who attains it? (iii) Who do not attain it?
nirodha-samāpatti is an state commented like proper of jhana cultivation. From the knowledge of that full extinction later it should arise the knowledge of the anagami fruition or the arhant fruition:

"Then he again enters the next higher absorption, and thus, after each absorption practising insight, he at last reaches the state of neither-perception-nor-non-perception, and thereafter the full extinction. This state, according to the Com., may last for 7 days or even longer. Immediately at the rising from this state, however, there arises in the Anagami the fruition of Anagamiship (anagami-phala), in the Arahat the fruition of Arahantship (arahatta-phala)."
http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/n_ ... apatti.htm

this state is different from phala-samapatti in where there is arising of lokuttara cittas for nibbana and nibbana itself. In nirodha-samapatti there is complete cessation but no phala-samapatti.

Phala-samapatti and nibbana exist for all ariya while nirodha-samapatti seem to be specific for anagami and arhant under jhana cultivation. In case of bare-insight it seems anagami and arhants don't have stop or stability in nirodha-samapatti. I believe this is the sense of the explanation.
My reading is that a dry-insight worker can’t attain it at all. Still, my main reason for posting this was simply because it discusses the existence of such a path.
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cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: The path of the dry-insight worker --- sukkhavipassaka

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Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Aug 11, 2020 2:53 am My reading is that a dry-insight worker can’t attain it at all. Still, my main reason for posting this was simply because it discusses the existence of such a path.
sorry, perhaps I did not understand. Yes, it says they cannot attain nirodha-samāpatti.
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Re: The path of the dry-insight worker --- sukkhavipassaka

Post by confusedlayman »

Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Aug 11, 2020 2:53 am
zerotime wrote: Tue Aug 11, 2020 2:48 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Aug 10, 2020 5:39 pm It in the Visuddhimagga when discussing nirodha-samāpatti it also states:

(ii) Who attains it? (iii) Who do not attain it?
nirodha-samāpatti is an state commented like proper of jhana cultivation. From the knowledge of that full extinction later it should arise the knowledge of the anagami fruition or the arhant fruition:

"Then he again enters the next higher absorption, and thus, after each absorption practising insight, he at last reaches the state of neither-perception-nor-non-perception, and thereafter the full extinction. This state, according to the Com., may last for 7 days or even longer. Immediately at the rising from this state, however, there arises in the Anagami the fruition of Anagamiship (anagami-phala), in the Arahat the fruition of Arahantship (arahatta-phala)."
http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/n_ ... apatti.htm

this state is different from phala-samapatti in where there is arising of lokuttara cittas for nibbana and nibbana itself. In nirodha-samapatti there is complete cessation but no phala-samapatti.

Phala-samapatti and nibbana exist for all ariya while nirodha-samapatti seem to be specific for anagami and arhant under jhana cultivation. In case of bare-insight it seems anagami and arhants don't have stop or stability in nirodha-samapatti. I believe this is the sense of the explanation.
My reading is that a dry-insight worker can’t attain it at all. Still, my main reason for posting this was simply because it discusses the existence of such a path.
Which is more blissful? Nirodha or fruitation?
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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Re: The path of the dry-insight worker --- sukkhavipassaka

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robertk wrote: Sun May 19, 2019 5:01 am Let us look at https://suttacentral.net/sn22.88/en/sujato
88. With Assaji, from the Khandhasamyutta nikaya



So the Buddha clearly indicates that it is not Samadhi that is the essence. He then gives a discourse about the khandhas and at the end Asaaji, despite having lost his ability to reside in jhana, attains arahat.
Hi Robert,
Where does it say that he attained Arahantship at that time?

As i see it this whole dry-insight worker being without jhana is a notion that can not be justified because jhanas are right concentration and it is made explicit that the ending of germentations and the abandoning of five lower fetters depends on the 1st, 2nd, 3rd and the 4th jhana.

The matter is very simple because either there is no such thing as a dry-insight-worker or the dry-insight-worker is not without rupa jhana.
"I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the first jhana... the second jhana... the third... the fourth... the dimension of the infinitude of space... the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness... the dimension of nothingness. I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception.
There is a path and a practice for giving up the five lower fetters. It’s not possible to know or see or give up the five lower fetters without relying on that path and that practice. ...
It’s when a mendicant—due to the seclusion from attachments, the giving up of unskillful qualities, and the complete settling of physical discomfort—quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, enters and remains in the first absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of seclusion, while placing the mind and keeping it connected. ...
They turn their mind away from those things, and apply it to the deathless element
What exactly jhana is, the types of jhana, the types of people who attain them and when they attain them, that is a different subject but to say that they are without jhana just contradicts the texts when taken at face value.
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Re: The path of the dry-insight worker --- sukkhavipassaka

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User1249x wrote: Tue Aug 11, 2020 6:10 am
robertk wrote: Sun May 19, 2019 5:01 am Let us look at https://suttacentral.net/sn22.88/en/sujato
88. With Assaji, from the Khandhasamyutta nikaya



So the Buddha clearly indicates that it is not Samadhi that is the essence. He then gives a discourse about the khandhas and at the end Asaaji, despite having lost his ability to reside in jhana, attains arahat.
Hi Robert,
Where does it say that he attained Arahantship at that time?

As i see it this whole dry-insight worker being without jhana is a notion that can not be justified because jhanas are right concentration and it is made explicit that the ending of germentations and the abandoning of five lower fetters depends on the 1st, 2nd, 3rd and the 4th jhana.

The matter is very simple because either there is no such thing as a dry-insight-worker or the dry-insight-worker is not without rupa jhana.


What exactly jhana is, the types of jhana, the types of people who attain them and when they attain them, that is a different subject but to say that they are without jhana just contradicts the texts when taken at face value.
Good to see you posting again.
See at the bottom of the post where I wrote about Assaji where the Commentary specifies he became arahat.
with regard to your comments about jhana - see this post earlier in the thread: https://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?p=513389#p513389
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Re: The path of the dry-insight worker --- sukkhavipassaka

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robertk wrote: Tue Aug 11, 2020 7:44 am Good to see you posting again.
See at the bottom of the post where I wrote about Assaji where the Commentary specifies he became arahat.
with regard to your comments about jhana - see this post earlier in the thread: https://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?p=513389#p513389
I saw them. My intention is not to argue against the commentarial method of expression, it's meaning is somewhat obscured to me and it is therefore difficult to reconcile those expressions with the Sutta.

If Assaji was able to still the breath at some point then he clearly wasn't without the jhana, likely had occasional access to the four rupa jhana.

I don't think i can contribute much this thread but i personally explain the progression of what is today popularly called dry insight based on the Sutta method of expression thus;
12) He trains himself, 'I will breathe in focusing on inconstancy.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out focusing on inconstancy.'
13) He trains himself, 'I will breathe in focusing on dispassion [literally, fading].' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out focusing on dispassion.'
14) He trains himself, 'I will breathe in focusing on cessation.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out focusing on cessation.'
15) He trains himself, 'I will breathe in focusing on relinquishment.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out focusing on relinquishment[mn.118].'

(12-15) “On whatever occasion, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu trains thus, ‘I shall breathe in contemplating impermanence’;trains thus, ‘I shall breathe out contemplating impermanence’;
trains thus, ‘I shall breathe in contemplating fading away’; trains thus, ‘I shall breathe out contemplating fading away’; trains thus, ‘I shall breathe in contemplating cessation’; trains thus, ‘I shall breathe out contemplating cessation’; trains thus, ‘I shall breathe in contemplating relinquishment’; trains thus, ‘I shall breathe out contemplating relinquishment’—on that occasion, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu abides contemplating mental objects in
mental objects, ardent, clearly comprehending, mindful, having put away covetousness and grief regarding the world. “Having seen with understanding what is the abandoning
of covetousness and grief, he becomes one who looks on with complete equanimity. That is why on that occasion, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu abides contemplating mental objects in mental objects, ardent, clearly comprehending, mindful, having put away covetousness and grief regarding the world.[mn118]

'Whatever is felt comes under stress.' That I have stated simply in connection with the inconstancy of fabrications. That I have stated simply in connection with the nature of fabrications to end... in connection with the nature of fabrications to fall away... to fade away... to cease... in connection with the nature of fabrications to change [sn36.011].

"And what are the six kinds of renunciation joy? The joy that arises when — experiencing the inconstancy of those very forms, their change, fading, & cessation — one sees with right discernment as it actually is that all forms, past or present, are inconstant, stressful, subject to change: That is called renunciation joy. (Similarly with sounds, smells, tastes, tactile sensations, & ideas.)[MN 137]

It’s when a mendicant—due to the seclusion from attachments, the giving up of unskillful qualities, and the complete settling of physical discomfort—quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, enters and remains in the first absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of seclusion, while placing the mind and keeping it connected. ...
They turn their mind away from those things, and apply it to the deathless element [mn64]
So in short one trains satipatthana, due to that attains renunciation joy, his mind is thus pleased and that constitutes jhana, they then turn their mind away from those jhana states and that towards the deathless.

Also as they experience the renunciation joy they keep developing dispassion by focusing on the inconstancy, so the joy and elation likewise get stilled and they become percepient of ie earth wholeness or the air wholeness as they attain the fourth jhana or are otherwise mindful & equanimous.

Fwiw Mahasi Sayadaw wrote this in his Discourse on the Sallekha Sutta;
Insight meditation and absorption have some characteristics in common. When the practice of mindfulness is well established at the exploratory stage, i.e. knowledge by comprehension (sammasanañāna), there are initial application (vitakka), sustained application (vicāra), joy (pīti), bliss (sukha), and one-pointedness (ekagattā). Thus, whenever the meditator observes any phenomenon, his insight meditation is somewhat like the first absorption with its five characteristics.

When the meditator gains insight-knowledge of the arising and passing away of all phenomena, he is fully aware of an arising object without initial or sustained application. He has intense joy, bliss, and tranquillity, thus his meditation is somewhat like the second absorption with its three attributes.

The disappearance of the light, and so forth — the corruptions of insight (upakkilesa) — marks an advance in the insight-knowledge of the arising and passing away of phenomena. Then there is no joy, but bliss is very intense. The mind is tranquil and free from distractions. The meditator has the bliss and one-pointedness that are characteristics of the third absorption.

The higher levels of insight-knowledge such as knowledge of dissolution (bhangañāna), wherein the meditator sees only the passing away usually have nothing to do with joy. They are characterised by equanimity and one-pointedness. The former is especially pronounced at the stage of knowledge of equanimity about formations. At this stage the insight meditation is akin to the fourth absorption with its two attributes of equanimity and one-pointedness.
Loosely speaking that's essentially how i understand the progression of dry insight but i see little reason to use the terms like insight knowledges, access concentration and momentary samadhi to explain what's going on personally.
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Re: The path of the dry-insight worker --- sukkhavipassaka

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User1249x wrote: Tue Aug 11, 2020 8:49 am
Fwiw Mahasi Sayadaw wrote this in his Discourse on the Sallekha Sutta;
Insight meditation and absorption have some characteristics in common. When the practice of mindfulness is well established at the exploratory stage, i.e. knowledge by comprehension (sammasanañāna), there are initial application (vitakka), sustained application (vicāra), joy (pīti), bliss (sukha), and one-pointedness (ekagattā). Thus, whenever the meditator observes any phenomenon, his insight meditation is somewhat like the first absorption with its five characteristics.
Loosely speaking that's essentially how i understand the progression of dry insight but i see little reason to use the terms like insight knowledges, access concentration and momentary samadhi to explain what's going on personally.
sometimes can be confusing reading these details from manuals and explanations because in real terms the Path to fruition can lasts just few seconds. The absorption proper of 1st jhana or other jhanas mostly arise very quickly and just for some instants.

"However, some concentration is necessary for insight meditation, but only the level called "momentary concentration," a much weaker degree than that of the absorptions. Anyone can achieve momentary concentration, since it doesn’t require any special aptitude or a completely silent environment.
[...]
"Is not overcome by opposition": this means that the momentary concentration in its uninterrupted flow is not overwhelmed by the mental hindrances. "As if in absorption": this means that the strength of the momentary concentration is similar to that of concentration which has reached full mental absorption. However, such similarity of momentary concentration with fully absorbed concentration will become evident (only) when the methodical practice of insight reaches its culmination. (The Progress of Insight: A Treatise on Buddhist Satipatthana Meditation. Kandy: Buddhist Publication Society, 1994, pp. 6-7)


https://metaperl.gitlab.io/vipassana-dhura/jhana.html

it means these details comes from people with higher progress and stabilized Insight. They can review these details.
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Re: The path of the dry-insight worker --- sukkhavipassaka

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I just don't trust any non-canonical ideas without cross-referencing them with texts known to be true. They are not canon for a reason and i don't naively think that there were Arahants allover the place in the 5th let alone the 10th century. Seeing how bad things got by the time of the 2nd council i can only imagine how quickly things deteriorated. I am even skeptical to Yamaka but am not done analyzing.
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Re: The path of the dry-insight worker --- sukkhavipassaka

Post by sentinel »

I consider the "dry insight" could manage to achieve access concentration , where it is good enough to discern the five aggregates and pierce through them and able to uproot the three fetters aka one comprehended the dependent arising processess .
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Re: The path of the dry-insight worker --- sukkhavipassaka

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta »

robertk wrote: Sun May 19, 2019 4:32 am This thread will document some of the basis and evidence for the path of the sukkhavipassaka, as detailed in the Pali Canon and Commentaries.

It is also an appendix for this more wide ranging, and less technical thread: https://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?t=15952

I would like to acknowledge the work of Tzungkuen Wen, whose phd thesis collected many useful references. http://tkwen.sutta.org/A%20Study%20of%2 ... _final.pdf




A Study of Sukkhavipassaka in Pāli Buddhism / Tzungkuen Wen
  • Tzungkuen Wen wrote:I hope that this thesis has documented that the doctrine of the dry-insight arahant that is articulated in the Pāli commentarial literature very much probably originated from a very early time of Indian Buddhism and thus can not be taken to be an invention by later Theravādin commentators.

:heart:
𝓑𝓾𝓭𝓭𝓱𝓪 𝓗𝓪𝓭 𝓤𝓷𝓮𝓺𝓾𝓲𝓿𝓸𝓬𝓪𝓵𝓵𝔂 𝓓𝓮𝓬𝓵𝓪𝓻𝓮𝓭 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽
  • Iᴅᴇᴀ ᴏꜰ Sᴏᴜʟ ɪs Oᴜᴛᴄᴏᴍᴇ ᴏꜰ ᴀɴ Uᴛᴛᴇʀʟʏ Fᴏᴏʟɪsʜ Vɪᴇᴡ
    V. Nanananda

𝓐𝓷𝓪𝓽𝓽ā 𝓜𝓮𝓪𝓷𝓼 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽 𝓣𝓱𝓮𝓻𝓮 𝓘𝓼
  • Nᴏ sᴜᴄʜ ᴛʜɪɴɢ ᴀs ᴀ Sᴇʟғ, Sᴏᴜʟ, Eɢᴏ, Sᴘɪʀɪᴛ, ᴏʀ Āᴛᴍᴀɴ
    V. Buddhādasa
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Re: The path of the dry-insight worker --- sukkhavipassaka

Post by Coëmgenu »

What does the "sukkha" in the compound mean? Bliss/blissful? It's being translated rather reliably as "dry-insight practitioner." The word looks like it is related to "the clear seeing" in non-Theravadin systems.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Re: The path of the dry-insight worker --- sukkhavipassaka

Post by robertk »

Coëmgenu wrote: Tue Jul 13, 2021 3:00 pm What does the "sukkha" in the compound mean? Bliss/blissful? It's being translated rather reliably as "dry-insight practitioner." The word looks like it is related to "the clear seeing" in non-Theravadin systems.
Sukkha means dry. And here it is used because this way is not moistened by the pleasant attainments of samatha.
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