robertk wrote: ↑Tue Aug 11, 2020 7:44 am
Good to see you posting again.
See at the bottom of the post where I wrote about Assaji where the Commentary specifies he became arahat.
with regard to your comments about jhana - see this post earlier in the thread:
https://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?p=513389#p513389
I saw them. My intention is not to argue against the commentarial method of expression, it's meaning is somewhat obscured to me and it is therefore difficult to reconcile those expressions with the Sutta.
If Assaji was able to still the breath at some point then he clearly wasn't without the jhana, likely had occasional access to the four rupa jhana.
I don't think i can contribute much this thread but i personally explain the progression of what is today popularly called dry insight based on the Sutta method of expression thus;
12) He trains himself, 'I will breathe in focusing on inconstancy.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out focusing on inconstancy.'
13) He trains himself, 'I will breathe in focusing on dispassion [literally, fading].' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out focusing on dispassion.'
14) He trains himself, 'I will breathe in focusing on cessation.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out focusing on cessation.'
15) He trains himself, 'I will breathe in focusing on relinquishment.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out focusing on relinquishment[mn.118].'
(12-15) “On whatever occasion, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu trains thus, ‘I shall breathe in contemplating impermanence’;trains thus, ‘I shall breathe out contemplating impermanence’;
trains thus, ‘I shall breathe in contemplating fading away’; trains thus, ‘I shall breathe out contemplating fading away’; trains thus, ‘I shall breathe in contemplating cessation’; trains thus, ‘I shall breathe out contemplating cessation’; trains thus, ‘I shall breathe in contemplating relinquishment’; trains thus, ‘I shall breathe out contemplating relinquishment’—on that occasion, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu abides contemplating mental objects in
mental objects, ardent, clearly comprehending, mindful, having put away covetousness and grief regarding the world. “Having seen with understanding what is the abandoning
of covetousness and grief, he becomes one who looks on with complete equanimity. That is why on that occasion, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu abides contemplating mental objects in mental objects, ardent, clearly comprehending, mindful, having put away covetousness and grief regarding the world.[mn118]
'Whatever is felt comes under stress.' That I have stated simply in connection with the inconstancy of fabrications. That I have stated simply in connection with the nature of fabrications to end... in connection with the nature of fabrications to fall away... to fade away... to cease... in connection with the nature of fabrications to change [sn36.011].
"And what are the six kinds of renunciation joy? The joy that arises when — experiencing the inconstancy of those very forms, their change, fading, & cessation — one sees with right discernment as it actually is that all forms, past or present, are inconstant, stressful, subject to change: That is called renunciation joy. (Similarly with sounds, smells, tastes, tactile sensations, & ideas.)[MN 137]
It’s when a mendicant—due to the seclusion from attachments, the giving up of unskillful qualities, and the complete settling of physical discomfort—quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, enters and remains in the first absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of seclusion, while placing the mind and keeping it connected. ...
They turn their mind away from those things, and apply it to the deathless element [mn64]
So in short one trains satipatthana, due to that attains renunciation joy, his mind is thus pleased and that constitutes jhana, they then turn their mind away from those jhana states and that towards the deathless.
Also as they experience the renunciation joy they keep developing dispassion by focusing on the inconstancy, so the joy and elation likewise get stilled and they become percepient of ie earth wholeness or the air wholeness as they attain the fourth jhana or are otherwise mindful & equanimous.
Fwiw Mahasi Sayadaw wrote this in his Discourse on the Sallekha Sutta;
Insight meditation and absorption have some characteristics in common. When the practice of mindfulness is well established at the exploratory stage, i.e. knowledge by comprehension (sammasanañāna), there are initial application (vitakka), sustained application (vicāra), joy (pīti), bliss (sukha), and one-pointedness (ekagattā). Thus, whenever the meditator observes any phenomenon, his insight meditation is somewhat like the first absorption with its five characteristics.
When the meditator gains insight-knowledge of the arising and passing away of all phenomena, he is fully aware of an arising object without initial or sustained application. He has intense joy, bliss, and tranquillity, thus his meditation is somewhat like the second absorption with its three attributes.
The disappearance of the light, and so forth — the corruptions of insight (upakkilesa) — marks an advance in the insight-knowledge of the arising and passing away of phenomena. Then there is no joy, but bliss is very intense. The mind is tranquil and free from distractions. The meditator has the bliss and one-pointedness that are characteristics of the third absorption.
The higher levels of insight-knowledge such as knowledge of dissolution (bhangañāna), wherein the meditator sees only the passing away usually have nothing to do with joy. They are characterised by equanimity and one-pointedness. The former is especially pronounced at the stage of knowledge of equanimity about formations. At this stage the insight meditation is akin to the fourth absorption with its two attributes of equanimity and one-pointedness.
Loosely speaking that's essentially how i understand the progression of dry insight but i see little reason to use the terms like insight knowledges, access concentration and momentary samadhi to explain what's going on personally.