Sex is always unwholesome

Exploring the Dhamma, as understood from the perspective of the ancient Pali commentaries.
Kjigme
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Re: Sex is always unwholesome

Post by Kjigme »

"The tool the Buddha holds out to free the mind from desire is understanding. Real renunciation is not a matter of compelling ourselves to give up things still inwardly cherished, but of changing our perspective on them so that they no longer bind us. When we understand the nature of desire, when we investigate it closely with keen attention, desire falls away by itself, without need for struggle."

Bhikkhu Bodhi
We beings here assembled, whether terrestrial or celestial, salute the Accomplished Buddha, honoured by gods and men. May there be happiness!
We beings here assembled, whether terrestrial or celestial, salute the Accomplished Dhamma, honoured by gods and men. May there be happiness!
We beings here assembled, whether terrestrial or celestial, salute the Accomplished Sangha, honoured by gods and men. May there be happiness!

Ratana Sutta
Monsera
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Re: Sex is always unwholesome

Post by Monsera »

Dhammanando wrote: Fri Dec 06, 2019 3:04 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Dec 04, 2019 5:33 pm Is the classical Theravadin view that all sexually activity is rooted in lust and so is unwholesome?
A classical Theravadin view would be a momentarist view.

With a typical sexual act between two persons in love, there will be moments of mettā, which are wholesome, moments of lust, which are unwholesome, and moments of visual consciousness, auditory consciousness, olfactory consciousness, etc., which are kammically neutral.

The unwholesome moments, however, will not amount to an akusala kammapatha (an unwholesome kamma with the power to cause a bad rebirth), provided you're not doing it with someone you shouldn't be (which would be the akusala kammapatha of sexual misconduct) or lusting after someone you shouldn't be (which would be the akusala kammapatha of covetousness).
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... el225.html

This text argues against this viewpoint. Nothing inherent in the sexual act is necessarily based on lust.

Given your momentary view, what specifically in the sexual act would be based on metta and what would be based on lust if one could make such a distinction?

More importantly perhaps is why the act of sex would be any different to other forms of sense experience and sense pleasure? Certainly I understand that the relationship to sense pleasure and certain activities can change or even cease but the essence of it all is not being entrapped by the senses as far as I understand it. Outward renunciation simply being a potential aid towards mental renunciation.

Otherwise it could lend itself to the interpretation that the ending of craving is equivalent to no engagement at all similar to a deprivation tank.

Ramana maharshi read the newspaper filled with worldly affairs every morning. Are we then to say similarly that his engagement with sensuality is motivated by lust? Genuinely curious.
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cappuccino
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Re: Sex is always unwholesome

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Monsera wrote: Mon Jun 06, 2022 9:40 am that the ending of craving is equivalent to no engagement at all
“Monks, it is impossible indeed, that one can pursue sense gratification without sensual desire, without perceptions of sensual desire, without thoughts of sensual desire.”

Alagaddūpama Sutta
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cappuccino
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Re: Sex is always unwholesome

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Monsera wrote: Mon Jun 06, 2022 9:40 am Ramana Maharshi read the newspaper filled with worldly affairs every morning. Are we then to say similarly that his engagement with sensuality is motivated by lust? Genuinely curious.
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bpallister
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Re: Sex is always unwholesome

Post by bpallister »

what about when i pleasure myself while viewing cam girls? That's wholesome, right?! :stirthepot:
Monsera
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Re: Sex is always unwholesome

Post by Monsera »

cappuccino wrote: Mon Jun 06, 2022 6:11 pm
Monsera wrote: Mon Jun 06, 2022 9:40 am that the ending of craving is equivalent to no engagement at all
“Monks, it is impossible indeed, that one can pursue sense gratification without sensual desire, without perceptions of sensual desire, without thoughts of sensual desire.”

Alagaddūpama Sutta
I am aware of the sutta. You are implying that this sutta tells us that one cannot engage in the world of the senses without getting caught?

A buddha can not have a conversation without sensual desire? He can not look at a beautiful sight without sensual desire?

The sutta is about sensual indulgence as far as I can tell. Thanissaro translates it that way. Any other way seems to make little sense.
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cappuccino
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Re: Sex is always unwholesome

Post by cappuccino »

Monsera wrote: Tue Jun 07, 2022 1:41 am You are implying that this sutta tells us that one cannot engage in the world of the senses without getting caught?
You can only engage in sensuality until you don’t, after which you can’t
Monsera
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Re: Sex is always unwholesome

Post by Monsera »

cappuccino wrote: Tue Jun 07, 2022 1:50 am
Monsera wrote: Tue Jun 07, 2022 1:41 am You are implying that this sutta tells us that one cannot engage in the world of the senses without getting caught?
You can only engage in sensuality until you don’t, after which you can’t
So buddhas do not interact with people anymore?
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cappuccino
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Re: Sex is always unwholesome

Post by cappuccino »

Monsera wrote: Tue Jun 07, 2022 1:55 am So buddhas do not interact with people anymore?
Sensual desire isn’t necessary

:shrug:
Monsera
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Re: Sex is always unwholesome

Post by Monsera »

cappuccino wrote: Tue Jun 07, 2022 2:00 am
Monsera wrote: Tue Jun 07, 2022 1:55 am So buddhas do not interact with people anymore?
Sensual desire isn’t necessary

:shrug:
You're losing me. That is the point I am making no? Sensual desire is not necessary when dealing with the senses. You make the claim that you can't engage in sensuality without sensual desire.
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cappuccino
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Re: Sex is always unwholesome

Post by cappuccino »

Monsera wrote: Tue Jun 07, 2022 2:05 am You make the claim that you can't engage in sensuality without sensual desire.
Desire for pleasure is necessary for there to be pleasure
Last edited by cappuccino on Tue Jun 07, 2022 3:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
bpallister
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Re: Sex is always unwholesome

Post by bpallister »

what if i have pleasure in a dream?
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cappuccino
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Re: Sex is always unwholesome

Post by cappuccino »

bpallister wrote: Tue Jun 07, 2022 2:10 am what if i have pleasure in a dream?
You should want pleasure, since you’re a layperson
Monsera
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Re: Sex is always unwholesome

Post by Monsera »

cappuccino wrote: Tue Jun 07, 2022 2:07 am
Monsera wrote: Tue Jun 07, 2022 2:05 am You make the claim that you can't engage in sensuality without sensual desire.
Desire for pleasure is necessary for there to be pleasure


Or… it’s like eating white rice


No flavor, no pleasure

Firstly i don’t think that is true. I’ll quote an earlier post from dhammanando:

‘Here a bhikkhu is an arahant, one whose taints are destroyed, the holy life fulfilled, who has done what had to be done, laid down the burden, attained the goal, destroyed the fetters of being, completely released through final knowledge. However, his five sense faculties remain unimpaired, by which he still experiences what is agreeable and disagreeable and feels pleasure and pain.'

This also refers back to my initial point about sense indulgence versus sense experience in relation to the sutta mentioned earlier.

Secondly even if it were true it is not what I am getting at. The point of contention is that you claim there to be an inability to deal with the sense world after craving has ended.
Last edited by Monsera on Tue Jun 07, 2022 3:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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cappuccino
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Re: Sex is always unwholesome

Post by cappuccino »

Monsera wrote: Tue Jun 07, 2022 2:53 am The point of contention is that you claim there to be an inability to deal with the sense world after craving has ended.
No…
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