Sex is always unwholesome

[Sam Vara]

It has to be abandoned at some point along the path - if not now, then when?

When it can be safely abandoned?

[Ceisiwr]

There is also the realistic aspect of this, which is that most of us are not ready for celibacy and forcing it would cause more craving and aversion, more trouble than benefit.

We practice with what we have right now and I find it worthwhile to look carefully at my motivation. If it is aversion and fear of intimacy, a romantic notion of a holy renunciate, rather than a sober readiness to renounce sensual pleasure, then it is bound to end badly.

It is interesting that the Bhikkhus who participate here do not wade into this conversation. They know it first-hand how hard celibacy can be and anyone seriously entertaining this practice should speak to an experienced Bhikkhu in private, I think. Otherwise there are many other sources of craving in our lives that one can attempt to give up and see how that goes. Sugar, meat, distraction of different sorts, addictive habits, etc etc..

Of course we shouldn’t shy away from it either, or make excuses not to refrain from sexual activity.

[Garrib]

It has to be abandoned at some point along the path - if not now, then when?

When it can be safely abandoned?

Can you define when it would be "safe" to become celibate? When would it be unsafe? How do you move from an unsafe situation into a safe one? Surely, people have done it - it is possible.

[Garrib]

There is also the realistic aspect of this, which is that most of us are not ready for celibacy and forcing it would cause more craving and aversion, more trouble than benefit.

We practice with what we have right now and I find it worthwhile to look carefully at my motivation. If it is aversion and fear of intimacy, a romantic notion of a holy renunciate, rather than a sober readiness to renounce sensual pleasure, then it is bound to end badly.

It is interesting that the Bhikkhus who participate here do not wade into this conversation. They know it first-hand how hard celibacy can be and anyone seriously entertaining this practice should speak to an experienced Bhikkhu in private, I think. Otherwise there are many other sources of craving in our lives that one can attempt to give up and see how that goes. Sugar, meat, distraction of different sorts, addictive habits, etc etc..

Of course we shouldn’t shy away from it either, or make excuses not to refrain from sexual activity.

There are many Bhikkhus, I presume, who are celibate but have not given up sugar, meat, other kinds of distractions. I don't think you need to become perfectly disciplined with regard to all sensuality before making a commitment to celibacy - rather, it is part of the training.

[cappuccino]

It has to be abandoned at some point along the path - if not now, then when?

only by losing interest

[Sam Vara]

It has to be abandoned at some point along the path - if not now, then when?

When it can be safely abandoned?

Can you define when it would be "safe" to become celibate? When would it be unsafe? How do you move from an unsafe situation into a safe one? Surely, people have done it - it is possible.

It might be unsafe if you were in a relationship where your partner expected sexual activity to continue, or where people attempt to be celibate when they are not able to maintain it, or to mask other uncomfortable feelings around sex, such as fear or disappointment.

[Garrib]

It might be unsafe if you were in a relationship where your partner expected sexual activity to continue, or where people attempt to be celibate when they are not able to maintain it, or to mask other uncomfortable feelings around sex, such as fear or disappointment.

I take your point - not everyone is ready for celibacy. Many will never attempt it, and have no desire to do so, nor a belief in any benefits that could arise from it. Others are happy in their relationships etc...

However, I am not sure I agree that celibacy could be unsafe if used "...to mask uncomfortable feelings around sex...fear or disappointment".

a) I would argue that "uncomfortable feelings" are part and parcel of sexuality. In many ways, an inability to endure uncomfortable feelings (without reacting) drives sexual behavior. It is not possible to first overcome all uncomfortable feelings around sex and THEN become celibate - that day will never come.

b) fear is rational with regard to sexuality, both in terms of potential consequences and because the pleasure is impermanent and will inevitably change into pain.

c) disappointment regarding sexuality is inevitable. It does not deliver on its promises.

If anything, engaging in sexuality is one's attempt to mask these things - abstaining from sexuality is an attempt to overcome them once and for all.

[Sam Vara]

However, I am not sure I agree that celibacy could be unsafe if used "...to mask uncomfortable feelings around sex...fear or disappointment".

a) I would argue that "uncomfortable feelings" are part and parcel of sexuality. In many ways, an inability to endure uncomfortable feelings (without reacting) drives sexual behavior. It is not possible to first overcome all uncomfortable feelings around sex and THEN become celibate - that day will never come.

b) fear is rational with regard to sexuality, both in terms of potential consequences and because the pleasure is impermanent and will inevitably change into pain.

c) disappointment regarding sexuality is inevitable. It does not deliver on its promises.

If anything, engaging in sexuality is one's attempt to mask these things - abstaining from sexuality is an attempt to overcome them once and for all.

Maybe. I'm just struck by the fact that some men who stridently advocate celibacy seem to have issues around women, or sex in general. They seem to be motivated by anger, or fear of women, or are rationalising their lack of sexual fulfillment. Abstaining from greed seems to be good, but one needs I think to be sure that one is not motivated by some variant of hatred or delusion instead.

[Ceisiwr]

However, I am not sure I agree that celibacy could be unsafe if used "...to mask uncomfortable feelings around sex...fear or disappointment".

a) I would argue that "uncomfortable feelings" are part and parcel of sexuality. In many ways, an inability to endure uncomfortable feelings (without reacting) drives sexual behavior. It is not possible to first overcome all uncomfortable feelings around sex and THEN become celibate - that day will never come.

b) fear is rational with regard to sexuality, both in terms of potential consequences and because the pleasure is impermanent and will inevitably change into pain.

c) disappointment regarding sexuality is inevitable. It does not deliver on its promises.

If anything, engaging in sexuality is one's attempt to mask these things - abstaining from sexuality is an attempt to overcome them once and for all.

Maybe. I'm just struck by the fact that some men who stridently advocate celibacy seem to have issues around women, or sex in general. They seem to be motivated by anger, or fear of women, or are rationalising their lack of sexual fulfillment. Abstaining from greed seems to be good, but one needs I think to be sure that one is not motivated by some variant of hatred or delusion instead.

Best to be a voluntary celibate than an incel masquerading as a volcel

[Sam Vara]

Best to be a voluntary celibate than an incel masquerading as a volcel

Exactly!

[Garrib]

[deleted post]

[SteRo]

Best to be a voluntary celibate than an incel masquerading as a volcel

Even better is to have a low level libido from the outset which may manifest as equanimity (asexuality) or to have a natural disgust towards bodily activities involved in mating/copulation.

[Ceisiwr]

Best to be a voluntary celibate than an incel masquerading as a volcel

Even better is to have a low level libido from the outset which may manifest as equanimity (asexuality) or to have a natural disgust towards bodily activities involved in mating/copulation.

Are you really refraining then though? Doesn’t seem like.

[SteRo]

Best to be a voluntary celibate than an incel masquerading as a volcel

Even better is to have a low level libido from the outset which may manifest as equanimity (asexuality) or to have a natural disgust towards bodily activities involved in mating/copulation.

Are you really refraining then though? Doesn’t seem like.

Asexuals usually are refraining. Ok some may be forced psychologically without enjoying it. And if you feel disgust why would you want to have sex?

[Ceisiwr]

Even better is to have a low level libido from the outset which may manifest as equanimity (asexuality) or to have a natural disgust towards bodily activities involved in mating/copulation.

Are you really refraining then though? Doesn’t seem like.

Asexuals usually are refraining. Ok some may be forced psychologically without enjoying it. And if you feel disgust why would you want to have sex?

It is refraining if you don’t feel the urge to begin with. I feel disgust is too strong an emotion. Too close to vibhava-taṇhā.