Sex is always unwholesome

[confusedlayman]

And how does a brahmin toe the line?

And why does the brahmin not have sex outside the fertile half of the month that starts with menstruation? Because his brahmin wife is not there for sensual pleasure, fun, and enjoyment, but only for procreation.

Having ensured his progeny through sex, his child makes him happy. Because of this attachment he stays in his family property, and does not go forth from the lay life to homelessness.

https://suttacentral.net/an5.192/en/sujato

And how does a brahmin cross the [red] line?

He has sex with a brahmin woman, as well as with a woman from a caste of aristocrats, merchants, workers, outcastes, hunters, bamboo workers, chariot-makers, or waste-collectors. And he has sex with women who are pregnant, breastfeeding, or outside the fertile half of the month that starts with menstruation.

His brahmin wife is there for sensual pleasure, fun, and enjoyment, as well as for procreation.

https://suttacentral.net/an5.192/en/sujato

In the sutta if u have sex and do jhana u won’t go Brahma world but if u do brahmavihara but no sex u become Brahma which means xxx suppress some of the force of jhana karma? I can’t understand

[lavantien]

Is the classical Theravadin view that all sexually activity is rooted in lust and so is unwholesome?

Yes, sex is always immoral, unskillful and unwholesome and is the great obstacle to the Path. Whoever defend for sexual acts is doing so based on their own defilement, is either insufficient in regard to Dhamma knowledge or deliberately misrepresent the Buddha's teaching to justify for their impurity.

You can be engage in a relationship as a layperson but you should know that it is to be gradually get rid of and don't misrepresent the Dhamma for the sake of justify your lowly act.

8. Sexual Intercourse
What was reckoned as immoral at that time, these days is reckoned as moral. The beings who had sex together weren’t allowed to enter a village or town for one or two months. Ever since they excessively threw themselves into immorality, they started to make buildings to hide their immoral deeds.

When they weren’t able to dissuade Ariṭṭha from his view, the mendicants went to the Buddha, bowed, sat down to one side, and told him what had happened.

So the Buddha said to a certain monk, “Please, monk, in my name tell the mendicant Ariṭṭha, formerly a vulture trapper, that the teacher summons him.”

“Yes, sir,” that monk replied. He went to Ariṭṭha and said to him, “Reverend Ariṭṭha, the teacher summons you.”

“Yes, reverend,” Ariṭṭha replied. He went to the Buddha, bowed, and sat down to one side. The Buddha said to him,

“Is it really true, Ariṭṭha, that you have such a harmful misconception: ‘As I understand the Buddha’s teachings, the acts that he says are obstructions are not really obstructions for the one who performs them’?”

“Absolutely, sir. As I understand the Buddha’s teachings, the acts that he says are obstructions are not really obstructions for the one who performs them.”

“Silly man, who on earth have you ever known me to teach in that way? Haven’t I said in many ways that obstructive acts are obstructive, and that they really do obstruct the one who performs them? I’ve said that sensual pleasures give little gratification and much suffering and distress, and they are all the more full of drawbacks. With the similes of a skeleton … a lump of meat … a grass torch … a pit of glowing coals … a dream … borrowed goods … fruit on a tree … a butcher’s knife and chopping block … a staking sword … a snake’s head, I’ve said that sensual pleasures give little gratification and much suffering and distress, and they are all the more full of drawbacks. But still you misrepresent me by your wrong grasp, harm yourself, and make much bad karma. This will be for your lasting harm and suffering.”

Then the Buddha said to the mendicants, “What do you think, mendicants? Has this mendicant Ariṭṭha kindled even a spark of wisdom in this teaching and training?”

“How could that be, sir? No, sir.” When this was said, Ariṭṭha sat silent, embarrassed, shoulders drooping, downcast, depressed, with nothing to say.

[Aloka]

Yes, sex is always immoral, unskillful and unwholesome and is the great obstacle to the Path. Whoever defend for sexual acts is doing so based on their own defilement, is either insufficient in regard to Dhamma knowledge or deliberately misrepresent the Buddha's teaching to justify for their impurity.Yes, sex is always immoral, unskillful and unwholesome and is the great obstacle to the Path. Whoever defend for sexual acts is doing so based on their own defilement, is either insufficient in regard to Dhamma knowledge or deliberately misrepresent the Buddha's teaching to justify for their impurity.

What you are forgetting about is that this fundamentalist rant is based on teachings and rules for ordained monks and is not a realistic attitude for ordinary lay people and their families. If everybody in the world followed what you say in the quote above, the human race would die out altogether!

Try reading AN4.55: https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

Excerpt:

Husband & wife, both of them
having conviction,
being responsive,
being restrained,
living by the Dhamma,
addressing each other
with loving words:
they benefit in manifold ways.
To them comes bliss.
Their enemies are dejected
when both are in tune in virtue.
Having followed the Dhamma here in this world,
both in tune in precepts & practices,
they delight in the world of the devas,
enjoying the pleasures they desire.
.

.

[PeterC86]

Is the classical Theravadin view that all sexually activity is rooted in lust and so is unwholesome?

Does it matter what the view of someone else is? Go into your own experience, there you will find if a sexual act is unwholesome or wholesome.

[Ceisiwr]

Is the classical Theravadin view that all sexually activity is rooted in lust and so is unwholesome?

Does it matter what the view of someone else is? Go into your own experience, there you will find if a sexual act is unwholesome or wholesome.

It is important to seek the advice of the wise.

[PeterC86]

Is the classical Theravadin view that all sexually activity is rooted in lust and so is unwholesome?

Does it matter what the view of someone else is? Go into your own experience, there you will find if a sexual act is unwholesome or wholesome.

It is important to seek the advice of the wise.

Sorry, I didn't see that this is the classical Theravada sub forum, therefore I have deleted my post.

But that's my advice.

[Aloka]

Is the classical Theravadin view that all sexually activity is rooted in lust and so is unwholesome?

Does it matter what the view of someone else is? Go into your own experience, there you will find if a sexual act is unwholesome or wholesome.

It is important to seek the advice of the wise.

All very well in theory, but it seems increasingly difficult to find and communicate with any living people who are truly "wise" these days!

.

[Ceisiwr]

Does it matter what the view of someone else is? Go into your own experience, there you will find if a sexual act is unwholesome or wholesome.

It is important to seek the advice of the wise.

All very well in theory, but it seems increasingly difficult to find and communicate with any living people who are truly "wise" these days!

.

I had in mind the suttas themselves and the commentaries.

[SteRo]

I had in mind the suttas themselves and the commentaries.

"Mahanama, inasmuch as a lay follower abstains from destroying living beings; abstains from taking what is not given; abstains from sexual misconduct; abstains from lying; and abstains from wine, liquor and intoxicants that are causes for heedlessness; in that way, Mahanama, a lay follower is virtuous."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .kuma.html

[seeker242]

You could easily say it's always unwholesome as it's not going to lead you to enlightenment. However, some things are much more unwholesome than others. On a scale of 1-10, sex that is not sexual misconduct, is quite low on the list.

[sunnat]

This is quite correct. Also a lay follower is also recommended to practice the uposatha precepts regularly which means celibacy. As a result, in time it is found that those who hold that all sexual activity is unwholesome are correct. It's a progressive path with progressively deepening truths culminating in an ultimate truth. Many aspects of the path, beneficial in the beginning, middle and end are like this.

[SteRo]

Then Anathapindika the householder, surrounded by about 500 lay followers, went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. So the Blessed One said to Ven. Sariputta: "Sariputta, when you know of a householder clothed in white, that he is restrained in terms of the five training rules and that he obtains at will, without difficulty, without hardship, four pleasant mental abidings in the here & now, then if he wants he may state about himself: 'Hell is ended; animal wombs are ended; the state of the hungry shades is ended; states of deprivation, destitution, the bad bourns are ended! I am a stream-winner, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening!'

"Now, in terms of which five training rules is he restrained?

"There is the case where a disciple of the noble ones abstains from taking life, abstains from taking what is not given, abstains from illicit sex, abstains from lying, abstains from distilled & fermented drinks that cause heedlessness.

"These are the five training rules in terms of which he is restrained.

"And which four pleasant mental abidings in the here & now does he obtain at will, without difficulty, without hardship?

"There is the case where the disciple of the noble ones is endowed with verified confidence in the Awakened One... This is the first pleasant mental abiding in the here & now that he has attained ....

"Furthermore, he is endowed with verified confidence in the Dhamma... This is the second pleasant mental abiding in the here & now that he has attained, ...

"Furthermore, he is endowed with verified confidence in the Sangha... This is the third pleasant mental abiding in the here & now that he has attained, ...

"Furthermore, he is endowed with virtues that are appealing to the noble ones: untorn, unbroken, unspotted, unsplattered, liberating, praised by the wise, untarnished, leading to concentration. This is the fourth pleasant mental abiding in the here & now that he has attained, ...

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

[santa100]

"Is sex always unwholesome?"
Depends on where one is on the path. For lay people, sexual misconduct is always unwholesome. For monastics, sex act in any way, shape, or form, is always unwholesome. So, it's like asking those maggots enjoying their meals off the dead smelly bloating corpse whether eating dead material is unwholesome. What do you expect? they're maggots and that's what they do. Similary, it's no coincidence that the realm we humans are living in is called the Kama-Loka/sensual realm. Sex, lust, and all kinds of defilements are not bugs. They are features built right into the core kernel of the Kama-Loka operating system. So the OP's question is only relevant if one's ready to step up and climb the ladder of evolution to a higher more refined state. For ultimately, one can't just self-hypnotize oneself with the notion that sex is always unwholesome. Once one's reached a higher state and looking back, one'd naturally see its true nature, exactly like a human looking at those poor ignorant maggots feasting off that dead smelly bloating corpse.

[lavantien]

What you are forgetting about is that this fundamentalist rant is based on teachings and rules for ordained monks and is not a realistic attitude for ordinary lay people and their families. If everybody in the world followed what you say in the quote above, the human race would die out altogether!

The Dhamma - the Buddha's teaching is timeless and universal, can be practiced by anyone, don't try to split it saying that this is for monks only, so and so, to justify your wrong views.

As I've quoted the Agganna sutta, and this is the Classical Theravada forum, the view is that of the Agganna sutta, which means human is in no way die out because of the lack of sexual acts, sex is immoral in the first place. And your hypothesis is just impossible to happen, so it's a useless and pointless hypothesis.

Right attitude is what need to be cultivated - of renunciation, non ill-will and non-cruelty, not cherry picking the texts or wriggling around to justify one's own defilement.

[Aloka]

As I've quoted the Agganna sutta, and this is the Classical Theravada forum, the view is that of the Agganna sutta, which means human is in no way die out because of the lack of sexual acts, sex is immoral in the first place. And your hypothesis is just impossible to happen, so it's a useless and pointless hypothesis.

Right attitude is what need to be cultivated - of renunciation, non ill-will and non-cruelty, not cherry picking the texts or wriggling around to justify one's own defilement.

...and I have quoted AN 4.55 Samajivina sutta: Living in Tune :

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

and I have nothing more to say to you, other than maybe instead of telling me what to do, it might be more fruitful if you try to examine your own defilements and frustrations instead, lavantien.

A fool who knows his foolishness is wise at least to that extent, but a fool who thinks himself wise is a fool indeed.
(Dh 5.63)

Have a lovely day.