What is being quoted in this Visuddhimagga quote?

A forum for members who wish to develop a deeper understanding of the Pali Canon and associated Commentaries, which for discussion purposes are both treated as authoritative.
User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 11125
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: United Kingdom

Re: What is being quoted in this Visuddhimagga quote?

Post by Ceisiwr »

ToVincent
There is no blissful and continuous Self/self (atta) - like Ka - in the salayatana nidana and below.
Is that hard to understand.
I don't care about what the "materialists" thought. That's your problem.
Actually, it’s your problem.

Now learn about Self/self in the Veda. Maybe you'll find that Buddha didn't deny a Self/self, or a Self outside that range - or maybe not.
I’m aware of how the Vedas imagine self. I’m also aware that the Buddha didn’t grow up in a Vedic culture and didn’t exclusively teach in a Vedic culture, and that other soul theories were around (such as the Jains, Ājīvikas and the materialists). Regardless, the Buddha seemed to be critical of any self theory be it divine or not, in any way it’s conceived, in any world or context. Why? Because any view of a self comes from craving and clinging. That isn’t a denial of course, in terms of a view. It’s not “verily there is no Self/self”. It’s an abandoning of self views through seeing their origination.
I am too much of an amateur to help you on that matter.
I’m glad you are able to see your own shortcomings. This is good.

Metta

:)
"Because of attachment to doctrines one approaches and refutes,
For those unattached, how can they dispute?
Not because self or no-self are said to be true,
He has only shaken off all harmful views."


Duṭṭhaṭṭhaka Sutta
ToVincent
Posts: 1169
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 6:02 pm

Re: What is being quoted in this Visuddhimagga quote?

Post by ToVincent »

Ceisiwr wrote: Thu May 21, 2020 8:41 pm ToVincent
There is no blissful and continuous Self/self (atta) - like Ka - in the salayatana nidana and below.
Is that hard to understand.
I don't care about what the "materialists" thought. That's your problem.
Actually, it’s your problem.

Now learn about Self/self in the Veda. Maybe you'll find that Buddha didn't deny a Self/self, or a Self outside that range - or maybe not.
I’m aware of how the Vedas imagine self. I’m also aware that the Buddha didn’t grow up in a Vedic culture and didn’t exclusively teach in a Vedic culture, and that other soul theories were around (such as the Jains, Ājīvikas and the materialists). Regardless, the Buddha seemed to be critical of any self theory be it divine or not, in any way it’s conceived, in any world or context . Why? Because any view of a self comes from craving and clinging. That isn’t a denial of course, in terms of a view. It’s not “verily there is no Self/self”. It’s an abandoning of self views through seeing their origination.
I am too much of an amateur to help you on that matter.
I’m glad you are able to see your own shortcomings. This is good.
Ah ok !
.
.
Some working for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; some for the Unborn.
.
Those who desire good are few, and those who desire evil are many.
Buddha
(And you just can't imagine how much goodness, those who desire evil, are ready to display - ToVincent).
User avatar
confusedlayman
Posts: 4336
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:16 am
Location: Human Realm (as of now)

Re: What is being quoted in this Visuddhimagga quote?

Post by confusedlayman »

zan wrote: Thu May 21, 2020 2:45 am
...the Ancients said:

There is no doer of a deed
Or one who reaps the deed’s result;
Phenomena alone flow on—
No other view than this is right.

-Vism XIX.20
What is being quoted?
that is what ven. Nagarjuna also said. so both are same tradition i.e theraveda
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 18183
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: What is being quoted in this Visuddhimagga quote?

Post by mikenz66 »

confusedlayman wrote: Thu Jul 02, 2020 8:30 am
zan wrote: Thu May 21, 2020 2:45 am
...the Ancients said:

There is no doer of a deed
Or one who reaps the deed’s result;
Phenomena alone flow on—
No other view than this is right.

-Vism XIX.20
What is being quoted?
that is what ven. Nagarjuna also said. so both are same tradition i.e theraveda
It's more likely to be something from the ancient commentaries that Buddhghosa translated into Pali.

:heart:
Mike
Srilankaputra
Posts: 1114
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2018 3:56 am
Location: Sri Lanka

Re: What is being quoted in this Visuddhimagga quote?

Post by Srilankaputra »

What the ancients said might become more clearer if another thing they said is considered. Paññatti & Paramattha or concept & reality.

Just a fun experiment. Look in to a mirror, is there a person in the mirror or just an image. Now go to a person, we see a woman our sister perhaps, look closer, can we really determine a person there or is it just, eye and colors and mind.

Lokāmisaṃ pajahe santipekkho ti
Srilankaputra
Posts: 1114
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2018 3:56 am
Location: Sri Lanka

Re: What is being quoted in this Visuddhimagga quote?

Post by Srilankaputra »

In case anyone is wondering, the mirror simile is an ancient simile going back to the time of Blessed One. It was actually the simile given by Ven Maha Puṇṇa Mantāniputta to Ven Ananda.
Seyyathāpi, āvuso ānanda, itthī vā puriso vā daharo yuvā maṇḍanakajātiko ādāse vā parisuddhe pariyodāte acche vā udakapatte sakaṃ mukhanimittaṃ paccavekkhamāno upādāya passeyya, no anupādāya; evameva kho, āvuso ānanda, rūpaṃ upādāya asmīti hoti, no anupādāya. Vedanaṃ … saññaṃ … saṅkhāre … viññāṇaṃ upādāya asmīti hoti, no anupādāya


Suppose, friend Ānanda, a young woman—or a man—youthful and fond of ornaments, would examine her own facial image in a mirror or in a bowl filled with pure, clear, clean water: she would look at it with clinging, not without clinging. So too, it is by clinging to form that ‘I am’ occurs, not without clinging. It is by clinging to feeling … to perception … to volitional formations … to consciousness that ‘I am’ occurs, not without clinging
https://suttacentral.net/sn22.83/en/bodhi

Above 'upādāya' has been translated as clinging, but it can also have the meaning of cause,reason of, dependence(depending on something). In my own words, would the image occur without water or does it occur due to/depending on water. Similarly would 'I am' occur without the aggregates or does it occur due to there being the aggregates.

The image is like 'concept' and water is like what is 'real'. Please don't misconstrue this and lose faith in the ancients. What they are saying is not that there is nothing. Feelings, mind etc are real. But they are dependently originated, Anicca, Dukkha and Anatta. Ariyas understand what is real and what is concept and can no longer be driven astray by them. They certainly would pass the salt when asked. (as I understand or misunderstand, investigate for your selves)

Lokāmisaṃ pajahe santipekkho ti
zan
Posts: 1136
Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2016 1:57 pm

Re: What is being quoted in this Visuddhimagga quote?

Post by zan »

It seems Venerable Buddhaghosa, or the ancients he was quoting, may have been paraphrasing this sutta or similar:
saṃyutta nikāya 5

connected discourses with bhikkhunis

10. Vajira
At Savatthi. Then, in the morning, the bhikkhuni Vajira dressed and, taking bowl and robe, entered Savatthi for alms. When she had walked for alms in Savatthi and had returned from her alms round, after her meal she went to the Blind Men’s Grove for the day’s abiding. Having plunged into the Blind Men’s Grove, she sat down at the foot of a tree for the day’s abiding.

Then Mara the Evil One, desiring to arouse fear, trepidation, and terror in the bhikkhuni Vajira, desiring to make her fall away from concentration, approached her and addressed her in verse:

“By whom has this being been created?
Where is the maker of the being?
Where has the being arisen?
Where does the being cease?”

Then it occurred to the bhikkhuni Vajira: “Now who is this that recited the verse—a human being or a nonhuman being?” Then it occurred to her: “This is Mara the Evil One, who has recited the verse desiring to arouse fear, trepidation, and terror in me, desiring to make me fall away from concentration.”

Then the bhikkhuni Vajira, having understood, “This is Mara the Evil One,” replied to him in verses:

“Why now do you assume ‘a being’?
Mara, is that your speculative view?
This is a heap of sheer formations:
Here no being is found.

“Just as, with an assemblage of parts,
The word ‘chariot’ is used,
So, when the aggregates exist,
There is the convention ‘a being.’

“It’s only suffering that comes to be,
Suffering that stands and falls away.
Nothing but suffering comes to be,
Nothing but suffering ceases.”

Then Mara the Evil One, realizing, “The bhikkhuni Vajira knows me,” sad and disappointed, disappeared right there.
-SN 5.10
I am just a learner. Keep that in mind when you read my words.

Just to be safe, assume all of my words could be incorrect. Look to an arahant for total accuracy and confirmation.
User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 10026
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: What is being quoted in this Visuddhimagga quote?

Post by DooDoot »

zan wrote: Tue Dec 29, 2020 10:52 pm It seems Venerable Buddhaghosa, or the ancients he was quoting, may have been paraphrasing this sutta or similar:
“Why now do you assume ‘a being’?
Mara, is that your speculative view?
This is a heap of sheer formations:
Here no being is found.

“Just as, with an assemblage of parts,
The word ‘chariot’ is used,
So, when the aggregates exist,
There is the convention ‘a being.’

“It’s only suffering that comes to be,
Suffering that stands and falls away.
Nothing but suffering comes to be,
Nothing but suffering ceases.”

Then Mara the Evil One, realizing, “The bhikkhuni Vajira knows me,” sad and disappointed, disappeared right there.

-SN 5.10
Maybe not. The above appears to say when the idea of "a being" arises; it is suffering arising; when the idea of "a being" ceases, it is suffering ceasing. Therefore the above does not appear to say there can be suffering without the idea of a "sufferer".
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
User avatar
confusedlayman
Posts: 4336
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:16 am
Location: Human Realm (as of now)

Re: What is being quoted in this Visuddhimagga quote?

Post by confusedlayman »

idea of being in somebody is imagination by thought

when beingness thought arises, stress arises

when beingness thought cease, stress cease

when ur dog dies u cry because u assume a entity dog inside dog body suffers pain and die

but when u see ur dog 5 aggregates (non living thing if seen properly) disintegrate u won't see pain but a natural process so we all suffer because we see being in humans that's why compassion is needed.. for one who see just 5 aggregates as non living thing and works how a cloud produce water due to cause and condition he won't feel sad when bones or tissues decay because there is no one in that bone or tissue..

so beingness oriented thought gives rise to further thoughts that has suffering related stuff as object of conciousness and we suffer due to resultant feeling...

u can completely let go of beingness in daily experience only when u reach arhantship ... however before arhantship u can intellectually and confirmedly know this fact
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
User avatar
StrivingforMonkhood
Posts: 118
Joined: Sat Aug 15, 2020 4:27 pm

Re: What is being quoted in this Visuddhimagga quote?

Post by StrivingforMonkhood »

confusedlayman wrote: Wed Dec 30, 2020 9:11 am idea of being in somebody is imagination by thought

when beingness thought arises, stress arises

when beingness thought cease, stress cease

when ur dog dies u cry because u assume a entity dog inside dog body suffers pain and die

but when u see ur dog 5 aggregates (non living thing if seen properly) disintegrate u won't see pain but a natural process so we all suffer because we see being in humans that's why compassion is needed.. for one who see just 5 aggregates as non living thing and works how a cloud produce water due to cause and condition he won't feel sad when bones or tissues decay because there is no one in that bone or tissue..

so beingness oriented thought gives rise to further thoughts that has suffering related stuff as object of conciousness and we suffer due to resultant feeling...

u can completely let go of beingness in daily experience only when u reach arhantship ... however before arhantship u can intellectually and confirmedly know this fact

That is so beautiful. Thank you from the bottom of my heart.

:anjali:
May we all fulfill our deepest wish for happiness

We are already Buddha
Post Reply