Confused about MN 60

Exploring the Dhamma, as understood from the perspective of the ancient Pali commentaries.
zan
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Confused about MN 60

Post by zan »

Please only provide answers from the Classical Theravada perspective, Suttanta or other perspective answers would confuse the issue further and are not relevant in this sub forum, as per the guidelines for this sub forum posted below.
V. There is no Cessation of Being
“Householders, there are some recluses and brahmins whose doctrine and view is this: ‘There is definitely no cessation of being.’

“Now there are some recluses and brahmins whose doctrine is directly opposed to that of those recluses and brahmins, and they say thus: ‘There definitely is a cessation of being.’ What do you think, householders? Don’t these recluses and brahmins hold doctrines directly opposed to each other?”—“Yes, venerable sir.”

“About this a wise man considers thus: ‘These good recluses and brahmins hold the doctrine and view “there is definitely no cessation of being,” but that has not been seen by me. And these other good recluses and brahmins hold the doctrine and view “there definitely is a cessation of being,” but that has not been known by me. If, without knowing and seeing, I were to take one side and declare: “Only this is true, anything else is wrong,” that would not be fitting for me. Now as to the recluses and brahmins who hold the doctrine and view “there definitely is no cessation of being,” if their word is true then it is certainly still possible that I might reappear after death among the gods of the immaterial realms who consist of perception. But as to the recluses and brahmins who hold the doctrine and view “there definitely is a cessation of being,” if their word is true then it is possible that I might here and now attain final Nibbāna. The view of those good recluses and brahmins who hold the doctrine and view “there definitely is no cessation of being” is close to lust, close to bondage, close to delighting, close to holding, close to clinging; but the view of those good recluses and brahmins who hold the doctrine and view “there definitely is cessation of being” is close to non-lust, close to non-bondage, close to non-delighting, close to non-holding, close to non-clinging.’ After reflecting thus, he practises the way to disenchantment with being, to the fading away and cessation of being.
-MN 60
So, the Buddha is saying that he does not say, or even know, that there is a cessation of being, but that we should practice the way to cessation of being? I am very confused.

What is the Classical Theravada take on this? Is he avoiding someone mistaking "being" for a self? Because there are other suttas where he says that every facet of what is called a being does indeed cease. In fact, there is at least one sutta where he defines "being" as "suffering" (SN 23.2) and we all know there are many, many suttas where he declares that suffering ceases! So, beings cease?

A being is defined within the five aggregates, as the sequence of dependent origination and as suffering, literally all of these things are said to cease (SN 12.2 for dependent origination, the other referenced suttas demonstrate the cessation of the other items mentioned). Even then, the Buddha delineates the All (SN 35.23), and every single thing included in the all is said to cease (SN 22.56). So that means that unless the Buddha said "A being is Nibbana." that a being necessarily ceases at some point, because any formulation of what a being is must be part of the All and therefore impermanent, subject to cessation, and Nibbana is the only unconiditioned, permanent dhamma that does not cease.

This is strange. Other than Nibbana, literally everything, without exception, ceases as per the Suttas. Why would the Buddha refrain from saying "A being ceases."? Again, is it merely because he wanted to avoid saying that a being exists, to avoid a verbal trap in which he could be misinterpreted as confirming the existence of a self?

Further, the Buddha didn't even know whether a being ceases or not? What? I realize he never claimed to have infinite knowledge (MN 71.), but not knowing the answer to such a basic and pertinent question seems really out of character. Can someone clear this up please?

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Assume all of my words on dhamma could be incorrect. Seek an arahant for truth.


"If we base ourselves on the Pali Nikayas, then we should be compelled to conclude that Buddhism is realistic. There is no explicit denial anywhere of the external world. Nor is there any positive evidence to show that the world is mind-made or simply a projection of subjective thoughts. That Buddhism recognizes the extra-mental existence of matter and the external world is clearly suggested by the texts. Throughout the discourses it is the language of realism that one encounters.
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Re: Confused about MN 60

Post by Mahabrahma »

Are there different types or kinds of "being"? :candle:. The Buddha asks us to choose the Middle-Way for a reason. Meditate on Nirvana.
That sage who has perfect insight,
at the summit of spiritual perfection:
that’s who I call a brahmin.

-Dhammapada.
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Re: Confused about MN 60

Post by zan »

I feel like Polar Bear deftly elucidated what a being is as per the Suttas with this old post from a different thread. And all of these things cease. Maybe Polar Bear would share their knowledge in relation to this topic? I pared down the post slightly to keep only what is relevant to this thread for clarity.
Polar Bear wrote: Wed Mar 08, 2017 10:29 pm
“But, friend, when the Tathagata is not apprehended by you as real and actual here in this very life, is it fitting for you to declare: ‘As I understand the Dhamma taught by the Blessed One, a bhikkhu whose taints are destroyed is annihilated and perishes with the breakup of the body and does not exist after death’?”

“Formerly, friend Sāriputta, when I was ignorant, I did hold that pernicious view, but now that I have heard this Dhamma teaching of the Venerable Sāriputta I have abandoned that pernicious view and have made the breakthrough to the Dhamma.”

“If, friend Yamaka, they were to ask you: ‘Friend Yamaka, when a bhikkhu is an arahant, one whose taints are destroyed, what happens to him with the breakup of the body, after death?’—being asked thus, what would you answer?”

“If they were to ask me this, friend, I would answer thus: ‘Friends, form is impermanent; what is impermanent is suffering; what is suffering has ceased and passed away. Feeling … Perception … Volitional formations … Consciousness is impermanent; what is impermanent is suffering; what is suffering has ceased and passed away.’ Being asked thus, friend, I would answer in such a way.”

https://suttacentral.net/en/sn22.85
So there is no continuing of consciousness, nor is there any annihilation because there is no being there to annihilate. A being persists and even consists of craving, when that is done away with, no being is to be found.
"'A being,' lord. 'A being,' it's said. To what extent is one said to be 'a being'?"

"Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for form, Radha: when one is caught up[1] there, tied up[2] there, one is said to be 'a being.'[3]

"Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for feeling... perception... fabrications...

"Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for consciousness, Radha: when one is caught up there, tied up there, one is said to be 'a being.'

"Just as when boys or girls are playing with little sand castles:[4] as long as they are not free from passion, desire, love, thirst, fever, & craving for those little sand castles, that's how long they have fun with those sand castles, enjoy them, treasure them, feel possessive of them. But when they become free from passion, desire, love, thirst, fever, & craving for those little sand castles, then they smash them, scatter them, demolish them with their hands or feet and make them unfit for play.

"In the same way, Radha, you too should smash, scatter, & demolish form, and make it unfit for play. Practice for the ending of craving for form.

"You should smash, scatter, & demolish feeling, and make it unfit for play. Practice for the ending of craving for feeling.

"You should smash, scatter, & demolish perception, and make it unfit for play. Practice for the ending of craving for perception.

"You should smash, scatter, & demolish fabrications, and make them unfit for play. Practice for the ending of craving for fabrications.

"You should smash, scatter, & demolish consciousness and make it unfit for play. Practice for the ending of craving for consciousness — for the ending of craving, Radha, is Unbinding."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

:namaste:
Assume all of my words on dhamma could be incorrect. Seek an arahant for truth.


"If we base ourselves on the Pali Nikayas, then we should be compelled to conclude that Buddhism is realistic. There is no explicit denial anywhere of the external world. Nor is there any positive evidence to show that the world is mind-made or simply a projection of subjective thoughts. That Buddhism recognizes the extra-mental existence of matter and the external world is clearly suggested by the texts. Throughout the discourses it is the language of realism that one encounters.
-Y. Karunadasa
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Re: Confused about MN 60

Post by Nicolas »

The Buddha does know.
The Buddha isn't referring to himself in this passage.
"A wise man considers thus": this refers to one who does not know, and not knowing, doesn't make a claim, but upon reflection, inclines in one direction.
The Buddha aligns with “there definitely is a cessation of being”, i.e. Nibbana.
zan
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Re: Confused about MN 60

Post by zan »

Nicolas wrote: Mon Sep 28, 2020 4:59 pm The Buddha does know.
The Buddha isn't referring to himself in this passage.
"A wise man considers thus": this refers to one who does not know, and not knowing, doesn't make a claim, but upon reflection, inclines in one direction.
The Buddha aligns with “there definitely is a cessation of being”, i.e. Nibbana.
Okay!!! Thank you!

So, as per the Buddha's actual position, he would say that he knows and states that there definitely is a cessation of being?

I completely misunderstood the sutta, and he is speaking from the perspective of someone else?

Am I understanding you?
Last edited by zan on Mon Sep 28, 2020 5:11 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Assume all of my words on dhamma could be incorrect. Seek an arahant for truth.


"If we base ourselves on the Pali Nikayas, then we should be compelled to conclude that Buddhism is realistic. There is no explicit denial anywhere of the external world. Nor is there any positive evidence to show that the world is mind-made or simply a projection of subjective thoughts. That Buddhism recognizes the extra-mental existence of matter and the external world is clearly suggested by the texts. Throughout the discourses it is the language of realism that one encounters.
-Y. Karunadasa
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Re: Confused about MN 60

Post by Mahabrahma »

Well if you don't think your real life begins once you achieve Nirvana, or the blowing out of material life, what is the purpose of achieving Nirvana? Real Spiritual life begins at the moment one attains Buddhahood--just look at Guatama's life, and he was and is a living being. This is what I mean by different types of beings. If you get too obsessed with a single concept you might lose it's meaning. :anjali:
That sage who has perfect insight,
at the summit of spiritual perfection:
that’s who I call a brahmin.

-Dhammapada.
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Re: Confused about MN 60

Post by Nicolas »

zan wrote: Mon Sep 28, 2020 5:05 pm So, as per the Buddha's actual position, he would say that he knows and states that there definitely is a cessation of being?

I completely misunderstood the sutta, and he is speaking from the perspective of someone else?

Am I understanding you?
That is my understanding, yes.
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Re: Confused about MN 60

Post by Mahabrahma »

Yeah the wise man in the Sutta eventually becomes disenchanted with his perception of being and fades away to the cessation of being. So you got it. :smile:
That sage who has perfect insight,
at the summit of spiritual perfection:
that’s who I call a brahmin.

-Dhammapada.
zan
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Re: Confused about MN 60

Post by zan »

Nicolas wrote: Mon Sep 28, 2020 5:10 pm
zan wrote: Mon Sep 28, 2020 5:05 pm So, as per the Buddha's actual position, he would say that he knows and states that there definitely is a cessation of being?

I completely misunderstood the sutta, and he is speaking from the perspective of someone else?

Am I understanding you?
That is my understanding, yes.
I think you're correct and I hope you are, that stitches up the issue neatly.

But why the switch between quoting and not quoting in the sentence? I took it as the good recluses and brahmins position is the one in quotes, and out of quotes is the Buddha's position?
And these other good recluses and brahmins hold the doctrine and view “there definitely is a cessation of being,” but that has not been known by me. If, without knowing and seeing, I were to take one side and declare: “Only this is true, anything else is wrong,” that would not be fitting for me.
-MN 60
It makes a lot of sense for you to be correct, because the Buddha saying he simply has no knowledge of the issue at the core of Buddhism would be really bizarre lol!
Assume all of my words on dhamma could be incorrect. Seek an arahant for truth.


"If we base ourselves on the Pali Nikayas, then we should be compelled to conclude that Buddhism is realistic. There is no explicit denial anywhere of the external world. Nor is there any positive evidence to show that the world is mind-made or simply a projection of subjective thoughts. That Buddhism recognizes the extra-mental existence of matter and the external world is clearly suggested by the texts. Throughout the discourses it is the language of realism that one encounters.
-Y. Karunadasa
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Re: Confused about MN 60

Post by DooDoot »

zan wrote: Mon Sep 28, 2020 5:14 pm
And these other good recluses and brahmins hold the doctrine and view “there definitely is a cessation of being,” but that has not been known by me. If, without knowing and seeing, I were to take one side and declare: “Only this is true, anything else is wrong,” that would not be fitting for me.
-MN 60
It makes a lot of sense for you to be correct, because the Buddha saying he simply has no knowledge of the issue at the core of Buddhism would be really bizarre lol!
I will examine the matter more thoroughly later however the issue could be due to the word "sabbaso":
Some ascetics and brahmins say that
yepi te bhonto samaṇabrāhmaṇā evaṃvādino evaṃdiṭṭhino:

there is such a thing as the total cessation of bhava, but I have not known that.
‘atthi sabbaso bhavanirodho’ti, idaṃ me aviditaṃ.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: Confused about MN 60

Post by DooDoot »

DooDoot wrote: Mon Sep 28, 2020 9:54 pm the issue could be due to the word "sabbaso"
Its not. "Sabbaso" is found in many sutta, such as Iti 44 & SN 56.22.
Nicolas wrote: Mon Sep 28, 2020 4:59 pm The Buddha does know.
The Buddha isn't referring to himself in this passage.
"A wise man considers thus": this refers to one who does not know, and not knowing, doesn't make a claim, but upon reflection, inclines in one direction.
The Buddha aligns with “there definitely is a cessation of being”, i.e. Nibbana.
Yes. The above appears to be the case. :smile:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
zan
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Re: Confused about MN 60

Post by zan »

DooDoot wrote: Tue Sep 29, 2020 7:27 am
DooDoot wrote: Mon Sep 28, 2020 9:54 pm the issue could be due to the word "sabbaso"
Its not. "Sabbaso" is found in many sutta, such as Iti 44 & SN 56.22.
Nicolas wrote: Mon Sep 28, 2020 4:59 pm The Buddha does know.
The Buddha isn't referring to himself in this passage.
"A wise man considers thus": this refers to one who does not know, and not knowing, doesn't make a claim, but upon reflection, inclines in one direction.
The Buddha aligns with “there definitely is a cessation of being”, i.e. Nibbana.
Yes. The above appears to be the case. :smile:
Ha! I was way off lol! Thanks, much appreciated. Sometimes it's really nice to be utterly incorrect.
Assume all of my words on dhamma could be incorrect. Seek an arahant for truth.


"If we base ourselves on the Pali Nikayas, then we should be compelled to conclude that Buddhism is realistic. There is no explicit denial anywhere of the external world. Nor is there any positive evidence to show that the world is mind-made or simply a projection of subjective thoughts. That Buddhism recognizes the extra-mental existence of matter and the external world is clearly suggested by the texts. Throughout the discourses it is the language of realism that one encounters.
-Y. Karunadasa
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Re: Confused about MN 60

Post by Coëmgenu »

zan wrote: Tue Sep 29, 2020 3:44 pm
DooDoot wrote: Tue Sep 29, 2020 7:27 am
DooDoot wrote: Mon Sep 28, 2020 9:54 pm the issue could be due to the word "sabbaso"
Its not. "Sabbaso" is found in many sutta, such as Iti 44 & SN 56.22.
Nicolas wrote: Mon Sep 28, 2020 4:59 pm The Buddha does know.
The Buddha isn't referring to himself in this passage.
"A wise man considers thus": this refers to one who does not know, and not knowing, doesn't make a claim, but upon reflection, inclines in one direction.
The Buddha aligns with “there definitely is a cessation of being”, i.e. Nibbana.
Yes. The above appears to be the case. :smile:
Ha! I was way off lol! Thanks, much appreciated. Sometimes it's really nice to be utterly incorrect.
It's even better to be able to 1) recognize the fact that you were incorrect, and 2) rejoice in learning what is correct. So many people can do neither.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
zan
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Re: Confused about MN 60

Post by zan »

Coëmgenu wrote: Tue Sep 29, 2020 3:51 pm
zan wrote: Tue Sep 29, 2020 3:44 pm
DooDoot wrote: Tue Sep 29, 2020 7:27 am
Its not. "Sabbaso" is found in many sutta, such as Iti 44 & SN 56.22.
Yes. The above appears to be the case. :smile:
Ha! I was way off lol! Thanks, much appreciated. Sometimes it's really nice to be utterly incorrect.
It's even better to be able to 1) recognize the fact that you were incorrect, and 2) rejoice in learning what is correct. So many people can do neither.
:heart:
If anyone can refute me—show me I’m making a mistake or looking at things from the wrong perspective—I’ll gladly change. It’s the truth I’m after...
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Assume all of my words on dhamma could be incorrect. Seek an arahant for truth.


"If we base ourselves on the Pali Nikayas, then we should be compelled to conclude that Buddhism is realistic. There is no explicit denial anywhere of the external world. Nor is there any positive evidence to show that the world is mind-made or simply a projection of subjective thoughts. That Buddhism recognizes the extra-mental existence of matter and the external world is clearly suggested by the texts. Throughout the discourses it is the language of realism that one encounters.
-Y. Karunadasa
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Re: Confused about MN 60

Post by Assaji »

Hi Zan,
zan wrote: Mon Sep 28, 2020 4:42 pm
V. There is no Cessation of Being
“Householders, there are some recluses and brahmins whose doctrine and view is this: ‘There is definitely no cessation of being.’

“Now there are some recluses and brahmins whose doctrine is directly opposed to that of those recluses and brahmins, and they say thus: ‘There definitely is a cessation of being.’ What do you think, householders? Don’t these recluses and brahmins hold doctrines directly opposed to each other?”—“Yes, venerable sir.”

“About this a wise man considers thus: ‘These good recluses and brahmins hold the doctrine and view “there is definitely no cessation of being,” but that has not been seen by me. And these other good recluses and brahmins hold the doctrine and view “there definitely is a cessation of being,” but that has not been known by me. If, without knowing and seeing, I were to take one side and declare: “Only this is true, anything else is wrong,” that would not be fitting for me. Now as to the recluses and brahmins who hold the doctrine and view “there definitely is no cessation of being,” if their word is true then it is certainly still possible that I might reappear after death among the gods of the immaterial realms who consist of perception. But as to the recluses and brahmins who hold the doctrine and view “there definitely is a cessation of being,” if their word is true then it is possible that I might here and now attain final Nibbāna. The view of those good recluses and brahmins who hold the doctrine and view “there definitely is no cessation of being” is close to lust, close to bondage, close to delighting, close to holding, close to clinging; but the view of those good recluses and brahmins who hold the doctrine and view “there definitely is cessation of being” is close to non-lust, close to non-bondage, close to non-delighting, close to non-holding, close to non-clinging.’ After reflecting thus, he practises the way to disenchantment with being, to the fading away and cessation of being.
-MN 60
So, the Buddha is saying that he does not say, or even know, that there is a cessation of being, but that we should practice the way to cessation of being? I am very confused.

What is the Classical Theravada take on this? Is he avoiding someone mistaking "being" for a self? Because there are other suttas where he says that every facet of what is called a being does indeed cease. In fact, there is at least one sutta where he defines "being" as "suffering" (SN 23.2) and we all know there are many, many suttas where he declares that suffering ceases! So, beings cease?
There is more straightforward and less confusing translation by Ven. Thanissaro Bhikkhu:
Cessation of becoming

"There are some contemplatives & brahmans who hold this doctrine, hold this view: 'There is no total cessation of becoming.' Some contemplatives & brahmans, speaking in direct opposition to those contemplatives & brahmans, say this: 'There is total cessation of becoming.' What do you think, householders? Don't these contemplatives & brahmans speak in direct opposition to each other?"

"Yes, lord."

"With regard to this, an observant person considers thus: 'As for those venerable contemplatives & brahmans who hold this doctrine, hold this view — "There is no total cessation of becoming" — I haven't seen that. As for those venerable contemplatives & brahmans who hold this doctrine, hold this view — "There is total cessation of becoming" — I haven't known that. If I, not knowing, not seeing, were to take one side and declare, "Only this is true, anything otherwise is worthless," that would not be fitting for me. As for those venerable contemplatives & brahmans who hold this doctrine, hold this view — "There is no total cessation of becoming": If their statement is true, there's the safe-bet possibility that I might reappear among the perception-made devas of no form. As for those venerable contemplatives & brahmans who hold this doctrine, hold this view — "There is total cessation of becoming": If their statement is true, it is possible that I will be totally unbound in the here-&-now. As for those venerable contemplatives & brahmans who hold this doctrine, hold this view — "There is no total cessation of becoming": This view of theirs borders on passion, borders on fettering, borders on relishing, borders on grasping, borders on clinging. As for those venerable contemplatives & brahmans who hold this doctrine, hold this view — "There is total cessation of becoming": This view of theirs borders on non-passion, borders on non-fettering, borders on non-relishing, borders on non-grasping, borders on non-clinging.' Reflecting thus, he practices for disenchantment toward becomings, for dispassion toward becomings, and for the cessation of becomings.
https://accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn ... .than.html

For the discussion of the term 'bhava', see:

https://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=27543

Best wishes!
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