Mahayana and secular logic has made me largely give up on the path...

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Sam Vara
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Re: Mahayana and secular logic has made me largely give up on the path...

Post by Sam Vara »

robertk wrote: Mon Oct 05, 2020 8:20 am
Sam Vara wrote: Mon Oct 05, 2020 8:12 am
zan wrote: Mon Oct 05, 2020 2:19 am
Basically I've lost faith due to following logic.
Sure. Who told you to follow logic?

Isn't this problem of faith solved by the Kalama Sutta, where the Buddha told people not to rely (among other things) on logic, but to rely on our own experiences? :anjali:
It might be that still people can be in error when relying on their own experiences..

The sutta says Kalamas, when you yourselves know: 'These things are good; these things are not blamable; these things are praised by the wise; undertaken and observed, these things lead to benefit and happiness,' enter on and abide in them
Yes, of course. Following logic until one loses the ability to practice is not praised by the wise. I imagine it is only ever praised by professors of logic with a tendency towards nihilism!
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robertk
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Re: Mahayana and secular logic has made me largely give up on the path...

Post by robertk »

So we have doubts and confusions about which way to go, and there is no gold seal that we can break and viola - here is the obvious real deal. Unless actual attainment occurs.

But maybe deciding to listen to someone who claims they have attainment these days is one way to go wrong- the numbers are growing in every sect , Theravada, or not and even outside of Buddhism, and all of them proclaim different methods and teachings. Even in the time of Buddha 500 bhikkhus listened to Devadatta and followed him- after all he extolled ascetism , was vegetarian and also knew many of the suttas proclaimed by the Buddha. In short he appeared to be confident, wise and virtuous.
http://www.palikanon.com/english/pali_n ... adatta.htm
Devadatta informed Ananda of his intention of holding an uposatha meeting without the Buddha, and, having persuaded five hundred newly ordained monks from Vesāli to join him, he went out to Gayāsīsa. On this occasion he tried to imitate the Buddha, keeping two chief disciples beside him (DhA.i.122).
The Buddha sent Sāriputta and Moggallāna to Gayāsīsa to bring back the deluded ones. Devadatta, believing that they had come to join him, rejoiced, and, in spite of Kokālika's warning, welcomed them. That night he preached very late to the monks, and, wishing for rest, asked Sāriputta to address the assembly. Sāriputta and Moggallāna preached to such effect that they persuaded the five hundred monks to return with them.
Fortunately for those bhikkhu they could attain and see their error and return to the Buddha. We don't have Sariputta and Moggalana to help us in person, but we do have the texts, the record of the Buddha's words.

So I would like to encourage your continued study and tendencies towards the classical Theravada as rehearsed at the first and second council, with the addition of the Katthavathu at the 3rd council and writing down at the 4th.
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robertk
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Re: Mahayana and secular logic has made me largely give up on the path...

Post by robertk »

binocular wrote: Mon Oct 05, 2020 8:31 am
robertk wrote: Mon Oct 05, 2020 8:20 amIt might be that still people can be in error when relying on their own experiences..

The sutta says Kalamas, when you yourselves know: 'These things are good; these things are not blamable; these things are praised by the wise; undertaken and observed, these things lead to benefit and happiness,' enter on and abide in them
Which is why it is so important to be a valuable member of a team with vast resources at their disposal who will come to your rescue even if you're stranded on Mars.
A.k.a. the importance of the sangha, literally and proverbially.
Yes, I think so. For me I am grateful to the monks of old who kept the pristine( I believe) Dhamma - and so it is still available to us.
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Re: Mahayana and secular logic has made me largely give up on the path...

Post by binocular »

robertk wrote: Mon Oct 05, 2020 11:09 amYes, I think so. For me I am grateful to the monks of old who kept the pristine( I believe) Dhamma - and so it is still available to us.
And you feel somehow cordially connected to them, even though you don't have a reciprocal/mutual relationship with them?
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
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robertk
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Re: Mahayana and secular logic has made me largely give up on the path...

Post by robertk »

binocular wrote: Mon Oct 05, 2020 12:28 pm
robertk wrote: Mon Oct 05, 2020 11:09 amYes, I think so. For me I am grateful to the monks of old who kept the pristine( I believe) Dhamma - and so it is still available to us.
And you feel somehow cordially connected to them, even though you don't have a reciprocal/mutual relationship with them?
I feel awe and inspiration- even though it is not a direct relationship. Those monks ( and nuns) took so many lives to develop the right path according to the classical texts, so it helps me to be patient with my limited understanding.

I do have flesh and blood teachers- Nina van Gorkom and Sujin Boriharnwanaket - who I have met so often over the last 30 years. They welcome questioning, interrogation even, on all aspects and it has been a very cordial relationship indeed.
But my main guide is still the texts and if I thought those personal teachers deviated from the classical theravada I wouldn't listen anymore ( hasn't happened to date).
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robertk
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Re: Mahayana and secular logic has made me largely give up on the path...

Post by robertk »

zan: The Mahayana have many treatises to ostensibly prove their superiority and disprove classical Theravada (and extremely strangely, all of Buddhism). Are there any such things in the Theravada that do the reverse? Have any authors in history written in defense of orthodox Theravada on this topic?
did you see the quote given recently by Ceisiwr from the Visuddhimagga tika?
And some misinterpret the meaning of the dependent origination thus, ‘Without cessation, without arising’ (anuppádaí anirodhaí) instead of taking the unequivocal meaning in the way stated” (Vism-mhþ 561). The last-mentioned quotation “Without cessation, without arising” (anuppádaí anirodhaí), seems almost certainly to refer to a well-known stanza in Nágárjuna’s Múlamádhyamika Káriká:

Anirodhaí anutpádaí anucchedaí aøásrataí
Anekarthaí anánarthaí anágamaí anirgamaí
Yaý pratìtyasamutpádaí prapañcopaøamaí øivaí
Deøayamása sambuddhas taí vande vadatáí varaí
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cappuccino
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Re: Mahayana and secular logic has made me largely give up on the path...

Post by cappuccino »

zan wrote:What advice would any classical Theravada adherents give me to get back on the path?
faith is from reading correctly


doubt is from reading incorrectly


like reading atheist books is incorrect
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SDC
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Re: Mahayana and secular logic has made me largely give up on the path...

Post by SDC »

zan wrote: Mon Oct 05, 2020 2:19 am ...
The impression I always get from your posts is that you're trying to hold too much together. I'm not sure if someone told you to do that or if it's you're own strategy, but if you're only taking what is considered orthodox as your field of work, you're ultimately going to be pulled in different directions while trying to stay in the center. The whole notion of orthodoxy is that it is self-contained, but at what point does your own suffering; the extent of your work; the personal movement of your own practice become a factor? It's almost as if recognition of the impression of your own suffering is off limits to you and that you prefer an external framework as a refuge. If that is the case, how will things ever change for you? @zan is not part of orthodox Theravada, so where do the two come together?

Even this thread...you put in Classical Theravada to protect it from anything that would pull it away from what seems to be the only framework you consider appropriate. If you don't want to respond to me, that is ok, but you should be asking yourself why you chose an exclusive field of work.
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samseva
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Re: Mahayana and secular logic has made me largely give up on the path...

Post by samseva »

Sam Vara wrote: Mon Oct 05, 2020 8:12 am
zan wrote: Mon Oct 05, 2020 2:19 am Basically I've lost faith due to following logic.
Sure. Who told you to follow logic?

Isn't this problem of faith solved by the Kalama Sutta, where the Buddha told people not to rely (among other things) on logic, but to rely on our own experiences? :anjali:
:goodpost:

The Buddha/Suttas teach three categories of development:

1. pariyatti (learning the wording of the teachings), 2. paṭipatti (practicing them), and 3. paṭivedha (realization).
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Re: Mahayana and secular logic has made me largely give up on the path...

Post by dharmacorps »

OP, If you have lost your faith due to over-intellectualizing the path, it is unlikely that resuming in the same manner will be fruitful. How about trying to meditate. Put the books down.
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Re: Mahayana and secular logic has made me largely give up on the path...

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Zan,
zan wrote: Mon Oct 05, 2020 2:19 am So, if we extrapolate certain ideas in the Pali Canon to their (hopefully incorrect) logical extreme, we end up at a point where the Buddha has zero authority because some of his own teachings (only at this logical extreme) negate any reason to follow them.
No, this is merely where your approach has taken you.

As per the suttas...
SN 1.20 wrote:This Dhamma is here-present, timeless, inviting inspection, leading onward, to be realized by the wise each for himself
... but you've not been engaging it with it this way. It appears you've been standing from afar, looking at different views and evaluating them in a hands-off manner, without diving in to see "how does what is said, accord with or relate to what I'm experiencing?". That's what determines understanding and success. Rather than concern yourself with structural integrity and internal consistency, trust that those issues will be easier to assess once you've gotten in there, rather than before you do.

[Mod note: This is a strange topic as it's simultaneously a Classical Theravada topic, a Connections To Other Paths topic, and a Personal Experience one. As such, we might allow a little more lee-way than we normally do in this section, but posts still need to be on-topic and relate to the original post... so no wayward tangents, no proselytizing and no sniping. If you think any postings don't hold to that standard, please report them rather than complain about them. Thanks.]

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

"Overcome the liar by truth." (Dhp 223)
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Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
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Re: Mahayana and secular logic has made me largely give up on the path...

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta »

zan wrote: Mon Oct 05, 2020 2:19 am ...

Basically I've lost faith due to following logic.

...


The more I read that sentence, the more I want to re-word it for myself like:
  • "Basically I've strengthened faith due to following logic"
(in other words)
  • "By using logic, theravada is increasingly found to be the most dependable one available, as long as true Buddha's teachings and utmost liberation are concerned."

:heart:
.


🅢🅐🅑🅑🅔 🅓🅗🅐🅜🅜🅐 🅐🅝🅐🅣🅣🅐

Self ...
  • "an entirely and perfectly foolish idea" :D ~ MN22
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cappuccino
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Re: Mahayana and secular logic has made me largely give up on the path...

Post by cappuccino »

Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote: Tue Oct 06, 2020 1:45 pm "Basically I've strengthened faith due to following logic"
:goodpost:
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samseva
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Re: Mahayana and secular logic has made me largely give up on the path...

Post by samseva »

cappuccino wrote: Tue Oct 06, 2020 2:11 pm
Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote: Tue Oct 06, 2020 1:45 pm "Basically I've strengthened faith due to following logic"
:goodpost:
That's precisely the opposite of what the OP said.

"Pure logic" (i.e., papañca) leads to nowhere good. It simply leads to a multiplicity of ever-expanding thoughts.
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