Share your classical Theravada (Please no non classical views. Wrong subforum) views on this post

Exploring the Dhamma, as understood from the perspective of the ancient Pali commentaries.
zan
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Share your classical Theravada (Please no non classical views. Wrong subforum) views on this post

Post by zan »

First of all:

The Abhidhamma and Classical Theravada sub-forums are specialized venues for the discussion of the Abhidhamma and the classical Mahavihara understanding of the Dhamma. Within these forums the Pali Tipitaka and its commentaries are for discussion purposes treated as authoritative. These forums are for the benefit of those members who wish to develop a deeper understanding of these texts and are not for the challenging of the Abhidhamma and/or Theravada commentarial literature.

Posts should, where appropriate, include support from a reference or a citation (Tipitaka, commentarial, or from a later work from an author representative of the Classical point-of-view).

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Here is the post:


The Slaying of Brahman (Consciousness)


One of the final aspects of self that we need to divest ourselves of is Consciousness/Brahman. there are levels of ego. the small I ego originally felt in the heart, the Buddha nature and now in my case consciousness/awareness has been relinquished too.
I will start by giving a quote by Taisen Deshimaru from his book ''Mushotoku Mind. Copyright 2012 Hohm Press: [page 113]
"Sometimes, when Japanese people are asked, "what is Buddha?" They answer, "Death". [Upper case 'D']. In the minds of many people Buddha simply means "death".[Lower case 'd'] They have forgotten the true meaning of the word. These lines -"All the buddhas of past, present, and future attain understanding of this Great Wisdom that delivers all beings from suffering and enables them to find Nirvana" - express the true meaning of the word Buddha.
in the Katha Upanisad Death speaks to Naciketas:
"Delighted at him, then, Death said to him again: well- pleased, the large- hearted one said to him: Here I grant you another wish today... [p 233 Upanisads, Patrick Olivelle translation, Oxford World Classics 1996]
here Death is called "large hearted". It should be remembered that the Supreme Patriarch of Soto, Eihei Dogen studied the esoteric teachings of Southern India. (according to Keizan in Transmission of the lamp, Denkoroku). In the West we usually have a poor opinion of all matters relating to Death, but perhaps it is impossible to find more profound aspects of life without the influences of Death.
"True death, death of oneself" [p109 Deshimaru] is surely a blessing and not to be feared.
With Death's help one finds oneself in a place where all vijnanas have ceased and even consciousness and Self have been slain. One now sees nothing at all and yet there is the illusion of seeing.
THAT and "This" cease to be. consciousness gone. consciousness itself is a higher form of 'self' (Brahman). The No Self has gone beyond the Self (Atman) of Brahman. Not even suchness is seen now and yet I see in a manner of seeing (which is not seeing and has no 'I').
Buddha said that in a past life he remembered being cut up into pieces by a wicked king (Kalinga?). And yet since he had no concept nor experience of self he was not bitter towards his murderer. To have realised no self and no mind may not be the end of the road. how many lives to go, who knows? is Death actually a door to life? When I say Death I mean the personification or person called Death, not death of the body.

-White Lotus (a user on dharmawheel)
I edited it to fix two typos.
Assume all of my words on dhamma could be incorrect. Seek an arahant for truth.


"If we base ourselves on the Pali Nikayas, then we should be compelled to conclude that Buddhism is realistic. There is no explicit denial anywhere of the external world. Nor is there any positive evidence to show that the world is mind-made or simply a projection of subjective thoughts. That Buddhism recognizes the extra-mental existence of matter and the external world is clearly suggested by the texts. Throughout the discourses it is the language of realism that one encounters.
-Y. Karunadasa
zan
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Re: Share your classical Theravada (please no non classical views. Wrong subforum) views on this post

Post by zan »

I feel that this is an incredibly beautiful and succinct articulation of parinibbana. If we assume "Buddha" can be a synonym for "parinibbana" and assume the classical position as articulated by Mahasi Sayadaw that parinibbana is, experientially, a non-experience, the cessation of all experience, the extinction of consciousness, then this is a really poetic and intellectually pleasing summary of this position. To be clear, parinibbana is, from this perspective, not an experience of nothingness, it is true nothingness (Below is a relevant selection of the words of Mahasi Sayadaw).

On the other hand, if read with a Mahayana/Vajrayana eye, it could be implying that beyond consciousness and death, etc., there is some kind of existence. Beyond the illusion of consciousness is some thing. So get past consciousness, get past the atman and Brahman and you'll find some thing, you'll find the self beyond the self, or god beyond the normal definition of god, or some kind of ineffable existence or whatever that is beyond consciousness and everything. Basically just a repetitive loop and rehashing of previously made religious positions on what the afterlife is, but claiming that the Buddhist one is the one that is special as it is beyond the others. This would be a mere one upmanship game that can and will go on for as long as humans exist. Some other tradition could say that their equivalent of parinibbana goes beyond even the Buddhist super special beyond Brahman experience/existence, and some other tradition could say theirs goes beyond the former, and so on ad infinitum.

I choose to read it with a classical Theravada view, and from that view parinibbana, or Buddha, is death, in that death (true death, beyond samsara: parinibbana) is cessation of experience; extinction. It really resonated with me. Especially, perhaps humorously, death as "the large hearted one". Only the classical Theravada interpretation allows us to get off the wheel in some way that is unique and utterly beyond and foreign to the infinite one uping that has been and will go on in all religions forever. One can always say "My afterlife/ultimate reality is better than and beyond yours," but there is no way to one up utter and total cessation.

So many Buddhists are obsessed with consciousness. It is such an issue that Buddhism has largely become synonymous with the philosophy that consciousness is all, or everything is imaginary, and either way, or any way, that one's consciousness will live on forever (even if we must relabel it with some new title, but while it still is, for all intents and purposes, consciousness) , and happily so if they escape samsara. So this author's statement about the importance of divesting ourselves of this disgusting obsession is truly noteworthy, that is, assuming he meant it in the classical Theravada sense. If he meant it in the sense that we will live forever as magical floating entities (perfectly conscious with some kind of consciousness that is relabeled with some new word, yet in no way different from the normal definition of conscious) beyond consciousness, then it is just more of the same. Again, I take it in the classical Theravada sense, and really appreicate it.

Bravo to White Lotus for writing this.



Notice that the Venerable uses two terms in reference to "nothingness" below; "the realm of nothingness" and "nothingness". The former he associates with the realms of existence, the latter he associates with extinction. The word "nothingness" being used to explain "extinction" leaves no room to interpret parinibbana as some kind of experience. That and the fact that the Venerable clearly delineates and specifies that all types of consciousness, existence, experience, etc. utterly cease at parinibbana.

About the Nature of Nibbāna
In the Pāḷi text of the Udāna the following passage occurs relating what Buddha uttered in triumph in relation to the nature of nibbāna. This utterance has been incorporated into the Canon as the Nibbāna-paṭisaṃyutta udāna.

“Atthi, bhikkhave, tadāyatanaṃ, yattha neva pathavī, na āpo, na tejo, na vāyo, na ākāsānañcāyatanaṃ, na viññāṇañ­cā­yatanaṃ, na ākiñcaññāyatanaṃ, na nevasaññā­nāsaññā­yatanaṃ, nāyaṃ loko, na paraloko, na ubho candimasūriyā. Tatrāpāhaṃ, bhikkhave, neva āgatiṃ vadāmi, na gatiṃ, na ṭhitiṃ, na cutiṃ, na upapattiṃ; appatiṭṭhaṃ, appavattaṃ, anārammaṇamevetaṃ. Esevanto dukkhassā”ti. (Udāna v 71)

“Monks! There is that base that has no elements of earth, water, fire, and air. It is neither the realm of Infinity of Space, nor the realm of Infinity of Consciousness, nor the realm of Nothingness, nor the realm of Neither Perception nor Non-perception. It is neither this world nor other worlds. No moon nor sun shines there. Here, monks, I say there is no going or coming. It has no foothold or residence. It is deathless, unborn, and unformed. It has no abode. Nothing ever occurs there. It has no sense-objects. It is the end of suffering.”

Nibbāna is Real
Since nibbāna means the cessation of mind, matter, and mental formations, suggestions have often been put forward that it signifies nothing and is thus useless. However, nibbāna is absolute reality, the reality of the nullification of the activities of mind, matter, and mental formations to which the knowledge of the Path, Fruition, and reviewing (paccavekkhaṇa) is inclined. It is the mind-object to which this knowledge is directed. Buddhas, Arahants, and Noble Ones vouch for the truth of its reality. For the sake of argument, let us say that there is no nibbāna where all the cycles of defilement, actions, and results cease. Then no one in this Universe can find peace. In the absence of nibbāna, defilement will play havoc with our lives to produce action, which will bring about results, which will create conditions for the arising of a new group of aggregates attended by suffering. It is only the Path and its Fruition that can exterminate defilements, and this extermination will bring the cycle of suffering to an end. This cessation of suffering is real. Buddhas and Arahants actually reach this stage, and after their parinibbāna all sufferings come to an end.

No Primary Elements in Nibbāna
In nibbāna there are no element of earth or solidity, no element of water or fluidity, no element of fire or thermal energy, and no element of air or motive force that can usually be met with in the world of the senses, such as the world of men and devas, or in the world of Form, such as the world of corporeal brahmas, etc. Possessing solidity, men, devas, and brahmas assume shapes and forms. Cessation means the end of such shapes and forms that possess mass. In the absence of mass, there are no elements of fluidity, thermal energy, and motive force.

Matter is Non-existent in Nibbāna
In the absence of the four primary elements there can be no derived materiality (upāda rūpa) formed by these four elements, for instance, the eye and the sight, the ear and the sound, etc. Since they are absent there will be no phenomena of seeing, hearing, etc., which occur in the sensual realm as sense-sphere consciousness and in the Form Sphere as form-sphere consciousness.

Consider this: without eyes one cannot see, without ears one cannot hear, without nose one cannot smell, without tongue one cannot taste, and without body one cannot get the sensation of touch. The physical sense bases are the seat of sensation, or the five sense organs that form the bases of consciousness. Devoid of the organs of sense, consciousness cannot arise. In the world of the brahmas, only the eye-base (cakkhu pasāda) and ear-base (sota pasāda) exist — nose-base (ghāna pasāda), tongue-base (jivhā pasāda), and body-base (kāya pasāda) being absent. So brahmas may possess noses and tongues in rudimentary forms or bodies or masses in great dimensions, but they do not know what smell is, what taste is, or what bodily impression is. However, there is the seat of consciousness usually called the heart-base (hadaya vatthu), in all sentient beings, whether celestial or human. So in these three realms, thought, knowledge, and absorptions can occur.

As I have said, as there are no primary elements in nibbāna, all matter dependent on these four elements are non-existent. Because of the absence of matter, there is no consciousness appertaining to the realm of the senses or to the realm of form — as, for instance, the first jhānic consciousness. For brevity’s sake I will discuss only about mind (citta), but whenever mind is mentioned one must remember it is accompanied by mental concomitants (cetasikā). Now the question arises whether in nibbāna there are still extant consciousness that arises without depending on matter as, for example, formless consciousness.

Absence of Formless Consciousness
Here, the text is also very explicit about the absence of formless sphere consciousness in nibbāna, whether it be consciousness appertaining to the abode of the Infinity of Space, or to the abode of the Infinity of Consciousness, or to the abode of Nothingness, or to the abode of Neither Perception nor Non-perception. In the realm of the Infinity of Space, rebirth-linking begins with the advent of consciousness relating to kamma result, mind and mental concomitants. For ordinary people, during the course of existence between rebirth-linking and death, wholesome or unwholesome consciousness, together with their concomitants arise. When such ordinary people are duly trained in the Dhamma they are known as trainees (sekkha).

Such trainees may become Arahants when they are reborn in the realm of the infinity of Space. In that case, only wholesome and functional consciousness arise together with their respective concomitants, but matter is absent there. Only mind and mental concomitants — all in a state of flux — are present. In that realm all phenomena are psychical. It just occurs to me that psychic beings need no food, clothing, or shelter, but it is usual for artists to depict this realm and others of the Formless Sphere as having palaces and mansions. However, in nibbāna they will be superfluous, as in nibbāna there is neither mind or matter.

Today non-Buddhists have become highly interested in space, but the space they have in mind is space in the physical sense. They may not be able to assimilate the idea of the existence of the realm of Infinity of Space, but the Buddha clearly differentiates the realm of mind and its constituents together with its state of absorptions from the realm of no-mind where all its concomitants and absorptions are nullified. A meditator who concentrates his or her mind on the rise and fall of the aggregates can aspire to reach the stage of knowledge of equanimity about formations. If he or she reaches that stage, he or she would feel the disappearance of the physical self, experiencing only a stream of consciousness that floats in space. As his or her knowledge progresses, this stream will become clearer and clearer. Strictly speaking, this is not absorption on Infinity of Space, but it is an insight akin to that absorption.

From the foregoing it may also be adduced that there is no consciousness and its concomitant appertaining to the realm of Infinity of Consciousness, and the same may be said of consciousness and its concomitant appertaining to the realm of Nothingness, and of Neither Perception nor Non-perception. The highest plane of existence is where perception is so subtle that it can be described as an intermediate stage between perception and non-perception. Equally subtle are contact, feeling, consciousness, and mental formations — concomitants of the mind that can be met with in that realm. In nibbāna such subtleties of the mind are entirely absent.

Those lacking confidence in the Dhamma and unable to realise the attainment of jhāna or ecstatic meditation (samāpatti), dispute all teachings relating to the realms of existence just described. What such sceptics should do is to practise insight meditation as taught by the Buddha. If they do they will attain jhāna that belongs to the realm of Neither Perception nor Non-perception, and realise for themselves the difference between the jhānic state in the Formless Sphere and nibbāna where such a state becomes redundant. It is futile to reject jhāna and nibbāna without any practical investigation.

Absence of Mind and Matter in Nibbāna
In nibbāna there are no such things as mind or mental concomitants, which can be met with in the sense-sphere or form-sphere. It naturally follows that mind and matter that belong to the thirty-one planes of existence are totally absent in nibbāna. However, some would like to propose that after the parinibbāna of the Buddha and the Arahants, they acquire a special kind of mind and matter in nibbāna. Such an extraordinary way of thinking may appeal to those who cannot do away with self or ego.

With regard to this proposition a learned Sayādaw reasoned that if there is a special kind of mind and matter in nibbāna, there must also be a special kind of rebirth which gives rise to a special kind of old age, disease, and death, which in turn bring about a special kind of sorrow, lamentation, suffering, distress, and despair. When the teachings explicitly say cessation, it will be improper to go beyond it and formulate an idea of a special kind of existence. Extinction points to nothing other than Nothingness. Nibbāna, which is not involved in mind and matter, cannot be made to get involved either in this world or in other worlds.

Nibbāna is Beyond All Realms
Hence the text says, “nāyaṃ loko, na paraloko,” which means “neither in this world nor in other worlds.” In the absence of matter there can be no concept of darkness; and in the absence of the concept of darkness, there can be no concept of light. Hence in nibbāna there is no sun nor moon. Where no new bodies of the aggregates arise there can be no darkness or light. Yet the question might arise whether it is possible for sentient beings to come to nibbāna in the way that beings from the lower realms come to the human world, or beings from the human world come to the world of devas. However, in nibbāna there are no such comings. The usual term to describe the realisation of nibbāna is that the Buddhas and Arahants “enter” nibbāna, or specifically, anupādisesanibbāna. This does not mean the arrival of new aggregates, but the cutting off of the flow of mind and matter that causes existence. It is the complete extinction of aggregates; and this extinction is recognised as anupādisesanibbāna. It is not a place where beings make their landing from other planes of existence.

No one goes out or gets transported from nibbāna to other planes of existence either. Beings with wholesome kammas depart this human world for the world of devas; and those from heaven might also come down to earth as human beings. Those with unwholesome kammas might prefer going down to the lower realms. In nibbāna there is no such coming and going.
-Venerable Mahasi Sayadaw, On the Nature of Nibbana
Attributes of Nibbāna

Nibbāna Has No Mass
It is often asked whether the Buddhas and Arahants exist as individuals in nibbāna. There is no mass in nibbāna. As it is not built up with a special kind of matter or mind, it cannot be looked upon as a mountain peopled by individuals, standing solidly across the firmament, like heaven or earth.

Nibbāna is Deathless and Birthless
In the thirty-one planes of existence one is born to die and be reborn to die again. Nibbāna is deathless and birthless. In the world of devas and brahmas, birth means sudden appearance, and death means sudden disappearance. Nibbāna is the cessation of all aggregates. In such a cessation there is neither appearance nor disappearance.
-Venerable Mahasi Sayadaw, On the Nature of Nibbana
Nibbāna Offers No Sense-objects
In the absence of mind, matter, consciousness, concomitants, etc., There can be no sense-objects, and in the absence of sense-objects no opportunities arise for mental formations to play their part. Nibbāna means the end of suffering. Since there are no primary elements and no mind and matter, everything ceases, and this cessation means eternal peace. All sufferings end.
-Venerable Mahasi Sayadaw, On the Nature of Nibbana
Assume all of my words on dhamma could be incorrect. Seek an arahant for truth.


"If we base ourselves on the Pali Nikayas, then we should be compelled to conclude that Buddhism is realistic. There is no explicit denial anywhere of the external world. Nor is there any positive evidence to show that the world is mind-made or simply a projection of subjective thoughts. That Buddhism recognizes the extra-mental existence of matter and the external world is clearly suggested by the texts. Throughout the discourses it is the language of realism that one encounters.
-Y. Karunadasa
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Share your classical Theravada (please no non classical views. Wrong subforum) views on this post

Post by Ceisiwr »

zan wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 5:04 am
I choose to read it with a classical Theravada view, and from that view parinibbana, or Buddha, is death, in that death (true death, beyond samsara: parinibbana) is cessation of experience; extinction.

Then Ven. Maha Kotthita went to Ven. Sariputta and, on arrival, exchanged courteous greetings with him. After an exchange of friendly greetings & courtesies, he sat to one side. As he was sitting there, he said to Ven. Sariputta, “With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media [vision, hearing, smell, taste, touch, & intellection] is it the case that there is anything else?”

[Sariputta:] “Don’t say that, my friend.”

[Maha Kotthita:] “With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media, is it the case that there is not anything else?”

[Sariputta:] “Don’t say that, my friend.”

[Maha Kotthita:] “…is it the case that there both is & is not anything else?”

[Sariputta:] “Don’t say that, my friend.”

[Maha Kotthita:] “…is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?”

[Sariputta:] “Don’t say that, my friend.”

[Maha Kotthita:] “Being asked if, with the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media, there is anything else, you say, ‘Don’t say that, my friend.’ Being asked if … there is not anything else … there both is & is not anything else … there neither is nor is not anything else, you say, ‘Don’t say that, my friend.’ Now, how is the meaning of your words to be understood?”

[Sariputta:] “The statement, ‘With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media [vision, hearing, smell, taste, touch, & intellection] is it the case that there is anything else?’ objectifies non-objectification. The statement, ‘… is it the case that there is not anything else … is it the case that there both is & is not anything else … is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?’ objectifies non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes. However far objectification goes, that is how far the six contact media go. With the remainderless fading & stopping of the six contact-media, there comes to be the stopping, the allaying of objectification.

https://suttacentral.net/an4.173/en/thanissaro
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
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Re: Share your classical Theravada (Please no non classical views. Wrong subforum) views on this post

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta »

Even an arahant, the perfected one, should still properly attend to the five grasping aggregates as ...



SN 22.122
Silavant Sutta: Virtuous
  • B.Sujato wrote:“But Reverend Sāriputta, what things should a perfected one properly attend to?”
    “Reverend Koṭṭhita, a perfected one should properly attend to the five grasping aggregates as impermanent, as suffering, as diseased, as an abscess, as a dart, as misery, as an affliction, as alien, as falling apart, as empty, as not-self. A perfected one has nothing more to do, and nothing that needs improvement. Still, these things, when developed and cultivated, lead to blissful meditation in the present life, and also to mindfulness and situational awareness.”
    https://suttacentral.net/sn22.122/en/sujato

Similarly:
SN 22.123
Sutavanta Sutta: Educated
  • B.Sujato wrote:“Reverend Koṭṭhita, a perfected one should properly attend to the five grasping aggregates as impermanent, as suffering, as diseased, as an abscess, as a dart, as misery, as an affliction, as alien, as falling apart, as empty, as not-self. A perfected one has nothing more to do, and nothing that needs improvement. Still, these things, when developed and cultivated, lead to blissful meditation in the present life, and also to mindfulness and situational awareness.”


from: Fundamentals of Vipassana Meditation
  • Mahasi Sayadaw wrote:Thus meditating on the five aggregates of grasping brings to the Arahant living with happiness in this world.
    ...
    ...
    For these two benefits -- a happy living in this very life and mindfulness and comprehension -- the Arahant lives in meditation.
    The above are the answers given by the Venerable Sāriputta in Sīlavanta Sutta. The answers are found in Sutavanta Sutta, too. The only difference is in the terms sīlavanta, “of moral habit” or “virtuous,” and sutavanta, “instructed” or “well-informed.”
    Translated by MAUNG THA NOE Edited by Sayadaw U SILANANDA


:heart:
𝓑𝓾𝓭𝓭𝓱𝓪 𝓗𝓪𝓭 𝓤𝓷𝓮𝓺𝓾𝓲𝓿𝓸𝓬𝓪𝓵𝓵𝔂 𝓓𝓮𝓬𝓵𝓪𝓻𝓮𝓭 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽
  • Iᴅᴇᴀ ᴏꜰ Sᴏᴜʟ ɪs Oᴜᴛᴄᴏᴍᴇ ᴏꜰ ᴀɴ Uᴛᴛᴇʀʟʏ Fᴏᴏʟɪsʜ Vɪᴇᴡ
    V. Nanananda

𝓐𝓷𝓪𝓽𝓽ā 𝓜𝓮𝓪𝓷𝓼 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽 𝓣𝓱𝓮𝓻𝓮 𝓘𝓼
  • Nᴏ sᴜᴄʜ ᴛʜɪɴɢ ᴀs ᴀ Sᴇʟғ, Sᴏᴜʟ, Eɢᴏ, Sᴘɪʀɪᴛ, ᴏʀ Āᴛᴍᴀɴ
    V. Buddhādasa
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Re: Share your classical Theravada (Please no non classical views. Wrong subforum) views on this post

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta »

.


Nibbana is a Mental Object.

  • Thanissaro Bhikkhu wrote:There is that dimension, monks, where there is neither earth, nor water, nor fire, nor wind; neither dimension of the infinitude of space, nor dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, nor dimension of nothingness, nor dimension of neither perception nor non-perception; neither this world, nor the next world, nor sun, nor moon. And there, I say, there is neither coming, nor going, nor staying; neither passing away nor arising: unestablished,[1] unevolving, without support [mental object].[2] This, just this, is the end of stress.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

Nibbana can be seen & known
  • There could, Ānanda. There are these two elements: the conditioned element and the unconditioned element. When a mendicant knows and sees these two elements, they’re qualified to be called ‘skilled in the elements’.”
https://suttacentral.net/mn115/en/sujato





:heart:
𝓑𝓾𝓭𝓭𝓱𝓪 𝓗𝓪𝓭 𝓤𝓷𝓮𝓺𝓾𝓲𝓿𝓸𝓬𝓪𝓵𝓵𝔂 𝓓𝓮𝓬𝓵𝓪𝓻𝓮𝓭 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽
  • Iᴅᴇᴀ ᴏꜰ Sᴏᴜʟ ɪs Oᴜᴛᴄᴏᴍᴇ ᴏꜰ ᴀɴ Uᴛᴛᴇʀʟʏ Fᴏᴏʟɪsʜ Vɪᴇᴡ
    V. Nanananda

𝓐𝓷𝓪𝓽𝓽ā 𝓜𝓮𝓪𝓷𝓼 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽 𝓣𝓱𝓮𝓻𝓮 𝓘𝓼
  • Nᴏ sᴜᴄʜ ᴛʜɪɴɢ ᴀs ᴀ Sᴇʟғ, Sᴏᴜʟ, Eɢᴏ, Sᴘɪʀɪᴛ, ᴏʀ Āᴛᴍᴀɴ
    V. Buddhādasa
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Re: Share your classical Theravada (Please no non classical views. Wrong subforum) views on this post

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta »

.



Nibbana is
  • not viññāṇa.
  • not consciousness non-manifest, infinite, radiant all-round.

  • Bhikkhu Sujato wrote:Nibbana is not viññāṇa. Really, it just isn’t.
  • Bhikkhu Sujato wrote:It is in the next lines of the verse, which are usually overlooked by the viññāṇa = Nibbana school, that the Buddha’s true position is stated. With the cessation of viññāṇa all this comes to an end. The ‘infinite consciousness’ is merely the temporary escape from the oppression of materiality, but true liberation is the ending of all consciousness.
    • ‘Kattha āpo ca pathavī,
      Tejo vāyo na gādhati;
      Kattha dīghañca rassañca,
      Aṇuṃ thūlaṃ subhāsubhaṃ;
      Kattha nāmañca rūpañca,
      Asesaṃ uparujjhatī’ti.
      • Where does water and earth
        fire, air not find a footing?
        Where does long and short
        Small, gross, fair and ugly,
        Where does name and form
        Without remainder cease?
    Tatra veyyākaraṇaṃ bhavati—
    For that the explanation is:
    • ‘Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ,
      Anantaṃ sabbatopabhaṃ;
      Ettha āpo ca pathavī,
      Tejo vāyo na gādhati.
      • Viññāṇa non-manifest
        Infinite, radiant all-round
        There water and earth
        fire, air do not find a footing
    • Ettha dīghañca rassañca,
      Aṇuṃ thūlaṃ subhāsubhaṃ;
      Ettha nāmañca rūpañca,
      Asesaṃ uparujjhati;
      Viññāṇassa nirodhena,
      Etthetaṃ uparujjhatī’”ti.
      • There does long and short
        Small, gross, fair and ugly,
        There does name and form
        Without remainder cease:
        With the cessation of viññāṇa
        There this ceases.
https://sujato.wordpress.com/2011/05/13 ... ust-isn’t/


:heart:
𝓑𝓾𝓭𝓭𝓱𝓪 𝓗𝓪𝓭 𝓤𝓷𝓮𝓺𝓾𝓲𝓿𝓸𝓬𝓪𝓵𝓵𝔂 𝓓𝓮𝓬𝓵𝓪𝓻𝓮𝓭 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽
  • Iᴅᴇᴀ ᴏꜰ Sᴏᴜʟ ɪs Oᴜᴛᴄᴏᴍᴇ ᴏꜰ ᴀɴ Uᴛᴛᴇʀʟʏ Fᴏᴏʟɪsʜ Vɪᴇᴡ
    V. Nanananda

𝓐𝓷𝓪𝓽𝓽ā 𝓜𝓮𝓪𝓷𝓼 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽 𝓣𝓱𝓮𝓻𝓮 𝓘𝓼
  • Nᴏ sᴜᴄʜ ᴛʜɪɴɢ ᴀs ᴀ Sᴇʟғ, Sᴏᴜʟ, Eɢᴏ, Sᴘɪʀɪᴛ, ᴏʀ Āᴛᴍᴀɴ
    V. Buddhādasa
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Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
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Re: Share your classical Theravada (Please no non classical views. Wrong subforum) views on this post

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta »

.

  • According to the Nikāyas, Nibbāna cannot be regarded as a self
  • The Nikāyas do not see Nibbāna as a form of consciousness,
    • including such exceptional kinds of consciousness as anidassana viññāṇa and appatiṭṭhita viññāṇa
  • Nor can Nibbāna be regarded as equivalent to mind, or any particular state of mind



What the Nikāyas Say and Do not Say about Nibbāna
Bhikkhu Brahmāli
Issued Date: 22 Aug 2009
Abstract
  • The only way of moving towards consensus on the controversial subject of the nature of Nibbāna is by appealing to the sole source of authority common to practically all Buddhists: the Nikāyas/āgamas. In the present paper I will first give an overview of the usage of the term Nibbāna in the Nikāyas. I will then argue that, according to the Nikāyas, Nibbāna cannot be regarded as a self. Next, I will point out that the Nikāyas do not see Nibbāna as a form of consciousness, including such exceptional kinds of consciousness as anidassana viññāṇa and appatiṭṭhita viññāṇa. Nor can Nibbāna be regarded as equivalent to mind, or any particular state of mind. ...
https://journals.equinoxpub.com/BSR/article/view/7139


:heart:
𝓑𝓾𝓭𝓭𝓱𝓪 𝓗𝓪𝓭 𝓤𝓷𝓮𝓺𝓾𝓲𝓿𝓸𝓬𝓪𝓵𝓵𝔂 𝓓𝓮𝓬𝓵𝓪𝓻𝓮𝓭 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽
  • Iᴅᴇᴀ ᴏꜰ Sᴏᴜʟ ɪs Oᴜᴛᴄᴏᴍᴇ ᴏꜰ ᴀɴ Uᴛᴛᴇʀʟʏ Fᴏᴏʟɪsʜ Vɪᴇᴡ
    V. Nanananda

𝓐𝓷𝓪𝓽𝓽ā 𝓜𝓮𝓪𝓷𝓼 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽 𝓣𝓱𝓮𝓻𝓮 𝓘𝓼
  • Nᴏ sᴜᴄʜ ᴛʜɪɴɢ ᴀs ᴀ Sᴇʟғ, Sᴏᴜʟ, Eɢᴏ, Sᴘɪʀɪᴛ, ᴏʀ Āᴛᴍᴀɴ
    V. Buddhādasa
pegembara
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Re: Share your classical Theravada (please no non classical views. Wrong subforum) views on this post

Post by pegembara »

zan
If we assume "Buddha" can be a synonym for "parinibbana" and assume the classical position as articulated by Mahasi Sayadaw that parinibbana is, experientially, a non-experience, the cessation of all experience, the extinction of consciousness, then this is a really poetic and intellectually pleasing summary of this position. To be clear, parinibbana is, from this perspective, not an experience of nothingness, it is true nothingness (Below is a relevant selection of the words of Mahasi Sayadaw).
Extinction of all experience is the extinction of consciousness.
It is not the experience of nothingness as expounded.
“Now what, bhikkhus, is the Nibbāna-element with no residue left? Here a bhikkhu is an arahant … completely released through final knowledge. For him, here in this very life, all that is experienced, not being delighted in, will be extinguished. That, bhikkhus, is called the Nibbāna-element with no residue left.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .irel.html
Nibbāna Offers No Sense-objects
In the absence of mind, matter, consciousness, concomitants, etc., There can be no sense-objects, and in the absence of sense-objects no opportunities arise for mental formations to play their part. Nibbāna means the end of suffering. Since there are no primary elements and no mind and matter, everything ceases, and this cessation means eternal peace. All sufferings end.
-Venerable Mahasi Sayadaw, On the Nature of Nibbana
There can be no subject without objects. No knower without the known (whereas the sphere of nothingness can be known).
"Furthermore, with the complete transcending of the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, [perceiving,] 'There is nothing,' Sariputta entered & remained in the dimension of nothingness...
He discerned that 'There is a further escape,' and pursuing it there really was for him.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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Re: Share your classical Theravada (Please no non classical views. Wrong subforum) views on this post

Post by Srilankaputra »

santo santipade rato;
Dhāreti antimaṃ dehaṃ,
jetvā māraṃ savāhinin”ti.

peaceful, delights in the peaceful state.
He bears his final body,
having conquered Māra and his mount.
https://suttacentral.net/an4.16/en/bodhi

Then the Venerable Ānanda approached the Blessed One, paid homage to him, sat down to one side, and said to him:

“Bhante, could a bhikkhu obtain such a state of concentration that (1) he would not be percipient of earth in relation to earth; (2) of water in relation to water; (3) of fire in relation to fire; (4) of air in relation to air; (5) of the base of the infinity of space in relation to the base of the infinity of space; (6) of the base of the infinity of consciousness in relation to the base of the infinity of consciousness; (7) of the base of nothingness in relation to the base of nothingness; (8) of the base of neither-perception-nor-non-perception in relation to the base of neither-perception-nor-non-perception; (9) of this world in relation to this world; (10) of the other world in relation to the other world, but he would still be percipient?”

“He could, Ānanda.”

“But how, Bhante, could he obtain such a state of concentration?”

“Here, Ānanda, a bhikkhu is percipient thus: ‘This is peaceful, this is sublime, that is, the stilling of all activities, the relinquishing of all acquisitions, the destruction of craving, dispassion, cessation, nibbāna.’ It is in this way, Ānanda, that a bhikkhu could obtain such a state of concentration that he would not be percipient of earth in relation to earth; of water in relation to water; of fire in relation to fire; of air in relation to air; of the base of the infinity of space in relation to the base of the infinity of space; of the base of the infinity of consciousness in relation to the base of the infinity of consciousness; of the base of nothingness in relation to the base of nothingness; of the base of neither-perception-nor-non-perception in relation to the base of neither-perception-nor-non-perception; of this world in relation to this world; of the other world in relation to the other world, but he would still be percipient.”
https://suttacentral.net/an10.6/en/bodhi

Wish you all success in all your endeavours. Goodbye!
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Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
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Re: Share your classical Theravada (Please no non classical views. Wrong subforum) views on this post

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta »

Srilankaputra wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 6:52 am
santo santipade rato;
Dhāreti antimaṃ dehaṃ,
jetvā māraṃ savāhinin”ti.

peaceful, delights in the peaceful state.
He bears his final body,
having conquered Māra and his mount.
https://suttacentral.net/an4.16/en/bodhi

Then the Venerable Ānanda approached the Blessed One, paid homage to him, sat down to one side, and said to him:

“Bhante, could a bhikkhu obtain such a state of concentration that (1) he would not be percipient of earth in relation to earth; (2) of water in relation to water; (3) of fire in relation to fire; (4) of air in relation to air; (5) of the base of the infinity of space in relation to the base of the infinity of space; (6) of the base of the infinity of consciousness in relation to the base of the infinity of consciousness; (7) of the base of nothingness in relation to the base of nothingness; (8) of the base of neither-perception-nor-non-perception in relation to the base of neither-perception-nor-non-perception; (9) of this world in relation to this world; (10) of the other world in relation to the other world, but he would still be percipient?”

“He could, Ānanda.”

“But how, Bhante, could he obtain such a state of concentration?”

“Here, Ānanda, a bhikkhu is percipient thus: ‘This is peaceful, this is sublime, that is, the stilling of all activities, the relinquishing of all acquisitions, the destruction of craving, dispassion, cessation, nibbāna.’ It is in this way, Ānanda, that a bhikkhu could obtain such a state of concentration that he would not be percipient of earth in relation to earth; of water in relation to water; of fire in relation to fire; of air in relation to air; of the base of the infinity of space in relation to the base of the infinity of space; of the base of the infinity of consciousness in relation to the base of the infinity of consciousness; of the base of nothingness in relation to the base of nothingness; of the base of neither-perception-nor-non-perception in relation to the base of neither-perception-nor-non-perception; of this world in relation to this world; of the other world in relation to the other world, but he would still be percipient.”
https://suttacentral.net/an10.6/en/bodhi


Thanks.

Here is the Note #1969 in The Numerical Discourses of the Buddha by Bhikkhu Bodhi for:
  • Here, Ananda, a bhikkhu is percipient thus: 'This is peaceful, this is sublime, that is, the stilling of all activities, the relinquishing of all acquisitions, the destruction of craving, dispassion, cessation, nibbana.
Note #1989 by Bhikkhu Bodhi:
  • Mp identifies this with the concentration of fruition attainment (phalasamapattisamadhi). This attainment is not the fruition that occurs for a few moments immediately following the path, but a special meditative state accessible only to those who have already attained one of the four paths and its subsequent fruition. The attainment, as shown in this sutta, does not take any of the mundane, conditioned meditation objects as its support; its support is the unconditioned nibbana, experienced directly and immediately. The commentaries hold that this attainment is graded as fourfold according to the four stages of realization (from stream-entry to arahantship).
The Numerical Discourses of the Buddha,Anguttara Nikaya,Bodhi (2012)
Mp ~ ManorathapuranI (Anguttara Nikaya-atthakatha)

:heart:
𝓑𝓾𝓭𝓭𝓱𝓪 𝓗𝓪𝓭 𝓤𝓷𝓮𝓺𝓾𝓲𝓿𝓸𝓬𝓪𝓵𝓵𝔂 𝓓𝓮𝓬𝓵𝓪𝓻𝓮𝓭 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽
  • Iᴅᴇᴀ ᴏꜰ Sᴏᴜʟ ɪs Oᴜᴛᴄᴏᴍᴇ ᴏꜰ ᴀɴ Uᴛᴛᴇʀʟʏ Fᴏᴏʟɪsʜ Vɪᴇᴡ
    V. Nanananda

𝓐𝓷𝓪𝓽𝓽ā 𝓜𝓮𝓪𝓷𝓼 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽 𝓣𝓱𝓮𝓻𝓮 𝓘𝓼
  • Nᴏ sᴜᴄʜ ᴛʜɪɴɢ ᴀs ᴀ Sᴇʟғ, Sᴏᴜʟ, Eɢᴏ, Sᴘɪʀɪᴛ, ᴏʀ Āᴛᴍᴀɴ
    V. Buddhādasa
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Pondera
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Re: Share your classical Theravada (Please no non classical views. Wrong subforum) views on this post

Post by Pondera »

Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 7:49 am Even an arahant, the perfected one, should still properly attend to the five grasping aggregates as ...



SN 22.122
Silavant Sutta: Virtuous
  • B.Sujato wrote:“But Reverend Sāriputta, what things should a perfected one properly attend to?”
    “Reverend Koṭṭhita, a perfected one should properly attend to the five grasping aggregates as impermanent, as suffering, as diseased, as an abscess, as a dart, as misery, as an affliction, as alien, as falling apart, as empty, as not-self. A perfected one has nothing more to do, and nothing that needs improvement. Still, these things, when developed and cultivated, lead to blissful meditation in the present life, and also to mindfulness and situational awareness.”
    https://suttacentral.net/sn22.122/en/sujato
By keeping impermanence in mind, we are freed. To the extent that this present world is viewed as “a cancer, a dart ...” we engender disenchantment which leads to dispassion; to release and knowledge of ending - a secure presence in the pure bright awareness of the fourth jhana.
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
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confusedlayman
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Re: Share your classical Theravada (Please no non classical views. Wrong subforum) views on this post

Post by confusedlayman »

Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 7:49 am Even an arahant, the perfected one, should still properly attend to the five grasping aggregates as ...



SN 22.122
Silavant Sutta: Virtuous
  • B.Sujato wrote:“But Reverend Sāriputta, what things should a perfected one properly attend to?”
    “Reverend Koṭṭhita, a perfected one should properly attend to the five grasping aggregates as impermanent, as suffering, as diseased, as an abscess, as a dart, as misery, as an affliction, as alien, as falling apart, as empty, as not-self. A perfected one has nothing more to do, and nothing that needs improvement. Still, these things, when developed and cultivated, lead to blissful meditation in the present life, and also to mindfulness and situational awareness.”
    https://suttacentral.net/sn22.122/en/sujato

Similarly:
SN 22.123
Sutavanta Sutta: Educated
  • B.Sujato wrote:“Reverend Koṭṭhita, a perfected one should properly attend to the five grasping aggregates as impermanent, as suffering, as diseased, as an abscess, as a dart, as misery, as an affliction, as alien, as falling apart, as empty, as not-self. A perfected one has nothing more to do, and nothing that needs improvement. Still, these things, when developed and cultivated, lead to blissful meditation in the present life, and also to mindfulness and situational awareness.”


from: Fundamentals of Vipassana Meditation
  • Mahasi Sayadaw wrote:Thus meditating on the five aggregates of grasping brings to the Arahant living with happiness in this world.
    ...
    ...
    For these two benefits -- a happy living in this very life and mindfulness and comprehension -- the Arahant lives in meditation.
    The above are the answers given by the Venerable Sāriputta in Sīlavanta Sutta. The answers are found in Sutavanta Sutta, too. The only difference is in the terms sīlavanta, “of moral habit” or “virtuous,” and sutavanta, “instructed” or “well-informed.”
    Translated by MAUNG THA NOE Edited by Sayadaw U SILANANDA


:heart:
why should he cultivate this? he already know that?
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
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Re: Share your classical Theravada (Please no non classical views. Wrong subforum) views on this post

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta »

confusedlayman wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 1:49 pm
Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 7:49 am Even an arahant, the perfected one, should still properly attend to the five grasping aggregates as ...



SN 22.122
Silavant Sutta: Virtuous
  • B.Sujato wrote:“But Reverend Sāriputta, what things should a perfected one properly attend to?”
    “Reverend Koṭṭhita, a perfected one should properly attend to the five grasping aggregates as impermanent, as suffering, as diseased, as an abscess, as a dart, as misery, as an affliction, as alien, as falling apart, as empty, as not-self. A perfected one has nothing more to do, and nothing that needs improvement. Still, these things, when developed and cultivated, lead to blissful meditation in the present life, and also to mindfulness and situational awareness.”
    https://suttacentral.net/sn22.122/en/sujato

Similarly:
SN 22.123
Sutavanta Sutta: Educated
  • B.Sujato wrote:“Reverend Koṭṭhita, a perfected one should properly attend to the five grasping aggregates as impermanent, as suffering, as diseased, as an abscess, as a dart, as misery, as an affliction, as alien, as falling apart, as empty, as not-self. A perfected one has nothing more to do, and nothing that needs improvement. Still, these things, when developed and cultivated, lead to blissful meditation in the present life, and also to mindfulness and situational awareness.”


from: Fundamentals of Vipassana Meditation
  • Mahasi Sayadaw wrote:Thus meditating on the five aggregates of grasping brings to the Arahant living with happiness in this world.
    ...
    ...
    For these two benefits -- a happy living in this very life and mindfulness and comprehension -- the Arahant lives in meditation.
    The above are the answers given by the Venerable Sāriputta in Sīlavanta Sutta. The answers are found in Sutavanta Sutta, too. The only difference is in the terms sīlavanta, “of moral habit” or “virtuous,” and sutavanta, “instructed” or “well-informed.”
    Translated by MAUNG THA NOE Edited by Sayadaw U SILANANDA


:heart:
why should he cultivate this? he already know that?



To experience the bliss of Nibbāna here and now,
  • by immersing in Arahatta-phalasamāpatti
.



  • The attainment of fruition (phalasamāpatti) is a meditative attainment by which a noble disciple enters into supramundane absorption with Nibbāna as object. It is attained for the purpose of experiencing the bliss of Nibbāna here and now. The cittas that occur in this attainment are the fruition cittas corresponding to the disciple’s level of realization. Thus, each of the four kinds of noble individuals can enter their own proper fruition attainment — the stream-enterer (sotāpanna) attaining the fruition attainment of streamentry, etc. The attainment is reached by first making the resolution to attain fruition and then developing, in sequence, the insight knowledges (vipassanāñāṇa) beginning with knowledge of rise and fall (of formations).

    A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma by Bhikkhu Bodhi

What these suttas say and what this point from abhidhamma book explains are very coherent. :smile:


:heart:
𝓑𝓾𝓭𝓭𝓱𝓪 𝓗𝓪𝓭 𝓤𝓷𝓮𝓺𝓾𝓲𝓿𝓸𝓬𝓪𝓵𝓵𝔂 𝓓𝓮𝓬𝓵𝓪𝓻𝓮𝓭 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽
  • Iᴅᴇᴀ ᴏꜰ Sᴏᴜʟ ɪs Oᴜᴛᴄᴏᴍᴇ ᴏꜰ ᴀɴ Uᴛᴛᴇʀʟʏ Fᴏᴏʟɪsʜ Vɪᴇᴡ
    V. Nanananda

𝓐𝓷𝓪𝓽𝓽ā 𝓜𝓮𝓪𝓷𝓼 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽 𝓣𝓱𝓮𝓻𝓮 𝓘𝓼
  • Nᴏ sᴜᴄʜ ᴛʜɪɴɢ ᴀs ᴀ Sᴇʟғ, Sᴏᴜʟ, Eɢᴏ, Sᴘɪʀɪᴛ, ᴏʀ Āᴛᴍᴀɴ
    V. Buddhādasa
Pulsar
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Re: Share your classical Theravada (Please no non classical views. Wrong subforum) views on this post

Post by Pulsar »

Dearest Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta: You wrote
Even an arahant, the perfected one, should still properly attend to the five grasping aggregates as
  • If you agree with the above in the sutta, are you not agreeing that an Arahant is not perfect.
Perhaps this is why Mahayanists replaced the Arahant with Bodhisattva figure. If you get a chance read the early debates on Sectarianism by Andrew Bareau. The book is titled "The Buddhist Schools of the small vehicle" it goes into detail in this regard.
You quoted
SN 22.122
Silavant Sutta: Virtuous
B.Sujato wrote:
“But Reverend Sāriputta, what things should a perfected one properly attend to?”
“Reverend Koṭṭhita, a perfected one should properly attend to the five grasping aggregates as impermanent, as suffering, as diseased, as an abscess, as a dart, as misery, as an affliction, as alien, as falling apart, as empty, as not-self.
  • A perfected one has nothing more to do, and nothing that needs improvement.
Still, these things, when developed and cultivated, lead to blissful meditation in the present life, and also to mindfulness and situational awareness.”
https://suttacentral.net/sn22.122/en/sujato
Taking a line from this passage
A perfected one has nothing more to do, and nothing that needs improvement.
How do you understand this line? Does it not contradict the rest of what is said there? How do you understand the word Aggregate? Take feelings for example, they only aggregate or cluster if there is clinging. Arahant is free of clinging. Based on that, can an Arahant have aggregates? Arahant has feelings and perceptions, but they do not aggregate as in Puthujjana.
Isn't the information on the Arahant in this sutta misleading?
I am merely responding to your comment. I would love to hear your take on this passage.
With love :candle:
zan
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Re: Share your classical Theravada (please no non classical views. Wrong subforum) views on this post

Post by zan »

pegembara wrote: Mon Nov 16, 2020 3:20 am
zan
If we assume "Buddha" can be a synonym for "parinibbana" and assume the classical position as articulated by Mahasi Sayadaw that parinibbana is, experientially, a non-experience, the cessation of all experience, the extinction of consciousness, then this is a really poetic and intellectually pleasing summary of this position. To be clear, parinibbana is, from this perspective, not an experience of nothingness, it is true nothingness (Below is a relevant selection of the words of Mahasi Sayadaw).
Extinction of all experience is the extinction of consciousness.
It is not the experience of nothingness as expounded.
“Now what, bhikkhus, is the Nibbāna-element with no residue left? Here a bhikkhu is an arahant … completely released through final knowledge. For him, here in this very life, all that is experienced, not being delighted in, will be extinguished. That, bhikkhus, is called the Nibbāna-element with no residue left.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .irel.html
Nibbāna Offers No Sense-objects
In the absence of mind, matter, consciousness, concomitants, etc., There can be no sense-objects, and in the absence of sense-objects no opportunities arise for mental formations to play their part. Nibbāna means the end of suffering. Since there are no primary elements and no mind and matter, everything ceases, and this cessation means eternal peace. All sufferings end.
-Venerable Mahasi Sayadaw, On the Nature of Nibbana
There can be no subject without objects. No knower without the known (whereas the sphere of nothingness can be known).
"Furthermore, with the complete transcending of the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, [perceiving,] 'There is nothing,' Sariputta entered & remained in the dimension of nothingness...
He discerned that 'There is a further escape,' and pursuing it there really was for him.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Thank you for your thoughts however I think you misread me. We were actually already in agreement before you wrote this.

From my op:
To be clear, parinibbana is, from this perspective, not an experience of nothingness, it is true nothingness(Below is a relevant selection of the words of Mahasi Sayadaw).
Further where you quoted me I said that it was a non experience which is an agreement with you.
a non-experience, the cessation of all experience
In order to avoid the misinterpretation of nothingness as the sphere of nothingness I included this of my own words before presenting the words of Mahasi Sayadaw:
Notice that the Venerable uses two terms in reference to "nothingness" below; "the realm of nothingness" and "nothingness". The former he associates with the realms of existence, the latter he associates with extinction. The word "nothingness" being used to explain "extinction" leaves no room to interpret parinibbana as some kind of experience. That and the fact that the Venerable clearly delineates and specifies that all types of consciousness, existence, experience, etc. utterly cease at parinibbana.
So unless I'm misreading you it seems like we're in total agreement on this issue. Namely that parinibbana is not an experience of any kind. Rather it is the cessation of all experience.
Assume all of my words on dhamma could be incorrect. Seek an arahant for truth.


"If we base ourselves on the Pali Nikayas, then we should be compelled to conclude that Buddhism is realistic. There is no explicit denial anywhere of the external world. Nor is there any positive evidence to show that the world is mind-made or simply a projection of subjective thoughts. That Buddhism recognizes the extra-mental existence of matter and the external world is clearly suggested by the texts. Throughout the discourses it is the language of realism that one encounters.
-Y. Karunadasa
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