Do everyone accept this refutation?

Exploring the Dhamma, as understood from the perspective of the ancient Pali commentaries.
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confusedlayman
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Do everyone accept this refutation?

Post by confusedlayman »

Third buddhist council
The text focuses on refuting the views of various Buddhist schools, these include:[6]

The views of the Pudgalavada school, which held that a 'person' exists as a real and ultimate fact and that it transmigrates from one life to the next.
That a perfected being (Arhat) can fall away from perfection.
The views of the Sarvastivadins, that "all [dharmas] exists" in the three times (past, present, future), a form of temporal eternalism.
That an Arhat can have a nocturnal emission.
That an Arhat may be lacking in knowledge, have doubts or be excelled by others.
That the duration of an awareness event can last a day or more.
That penetration and insight into the various stages of enlightenment is achieved gradually.
That the Buddha's worldly speech was somehow supramundane.
That all the powers of the Buddha are also possessed by his leading disciples.
That a layperson can become an Arhat.
That one can attain enlightenment at the moment of rebirth.
That the four noble truths, the immaterial states, space, and dependent origination are unconditioned.
That there is an intermediate state (Bardo) of existence
That all dhammas last for only a moment (ksana).
That all is due to Karma.
That it ought not be said the monastic order accepts gifts.
That the Buddha himself did not teach the dharma, but that it was taught by his magical creation.
That one who has attained jhana continues to hear sound
That the five gravest transgressions (matricide, patricide, etc.) involve immediate retribution even when committed unintentionally.
That final liberation can be obtained without eliminating a certain fetter.

The bold claim can someone explain me why its wrong.
isn't the 4 stage attainment gradual?
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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rhinoceroshorn
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Re: Do everyone accept this refutation?

Post by rhinoceroshorn »

confusedlayman wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 1:06 pm That an Arhat can have a nocturnal emission.
That an Arhat may be lacking in knowledge, have doubts or be excelled by others.
That penetration and insight into the various stages of enlightenment is achieved gradually.
That a layperson can become an Arhat.
That one who has attained jhana continues to hear sound
All that is unbelievable.
That is, all of that is possible. Sorry if I'm hurting someone's doctrine. If I recall well:
1) In Vinaya the Buddha says arahants can have erections except coming from lust. From an erection to an ejaculation is no time.
2) Sutta in which Sāriputta didn't know he was teaching another arahant.
3) IM SORRY?
Ud 5.5 wrote:Just as the ocean has a gradual shelf, a gradual slope, a gradual inclination, with a sudden drop-off only after a long stretch, in the same way this Doctrine and Discipline (dhamma-vinaya) has a gradual training, a gradual performance, a gradual progression, with a penetration to gnosis only after a long stretch.
MN 70 wrote:Monks, I do not say that the attainment of gnosis is all at once. Rather, the attainment of gnosis is after gradual training, gradual action, gradual practice. And how is there the attainment of gnosis after gradual training, gradual action, gradual practice?
4) Despite there were only anagami householders in the suttas, it doesn't mean arahantship is not possible for them (us). No sutta denies the possibility.
5) Read Ṭhānissaro Bhikkhu's essay "Silence isn't Mandatory". You can and do hear sounds in jhāna.
Eyes downcast, not footloose,
senses guarded, with protected mind,
not oozing — not burning — with lust,
wander alone
like a rhinoceros.
Sutta Nipāta 1.3 - Khaggavisana Sutta
Image
See, Ānanda! All those conditioned phenomena have passed, ceased, and perished. So impermanent are conditions, so unstable are conditions, so unreliable are conditions. This is quite enough for you to become disillusioned, dispassionate, and freed regarding all conditions.
Dīgha Nikāya 17
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confusedlayman
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Re: Do everyone accept this refutation?

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rhinoceroshorn wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 1:19 pm
confusedlayman wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 1:06 pm That an Arhat can have a nocturnal emission.
That an Arhat may be lacking in knowledge, have doubts or be excelled by others.
That penetration and insight into the various stages of enlightenment is achieved gradually.
That a layperson can become an Arhat.
That one who has attained jhana continues to hear sound
All that is unbelievable.
That is, all of that is possible. Sorry if I'm hurting someone's doctrine. If I recall well:
1) In Vinaya the Buddha says arahants can have erections except coming from lust. From an erection to an ejaculation is no time.
2) Sutta in which Sāriputta didn't know he was teaching another arahant.
3) IM SORRY?
Ud 5.5 wrote:Just as the ocean has a gradual shelf, a gradual slope, a gradual inclination, with a sudden drop-off only after a long stretch, in the same way this Doctrine and Discipline (dhamma-vinaya) has a gradual training, a gradual performance, a gradual progression, with a penetration to gnosis only after a long stretch.
MN 70 wrote:Monks, I do not say that the attainment of gnosis is all at once. Rather, the attainment of gnosis is after gradual training, gradual action, gradual practice. And how is there the attainment of gnosis after gradual training, gradual action, gradual practice?
4) Despite there were only anagami householders in the suttas, it doesn't mean arahantship is not possible for them (us). No sutta denies the possibility.
5) Read Ṭhānissaro Bhikkhu's essay "Silence isn't Mandatory". You can and do hear sounds in jhāna.
thanks rhino, do u have any idea why arhant Tissa could have said that? he is also arhant
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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rhinoceroshorn
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Re: Do everyone accept this refutation?

Post by rhinoceroshorn »

confusedlayman wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 2:39 pm
thanks rhino, do u have any idea why arhant Tissa could have said that? he is also arhant
Nobody can know if someone is or isn't a sotapanna, a sakadagami, an anagami, much less an arahant, ONLY a Buddha. Period. Arahants since Buddha's Parinibbāna are self-proclaimed.
I don't know if Tissa was an arahant or not but even if he was one, it doesn't mean he possessed the truth about all the Dhamma. That's the danger in blindly believing in Theravāda. We think we are following a limpid and unblemished tradition which is exactly what the Buddha taught, but... No. :buddha1:
Eyes downcast, not footloose,
senses guarded, with protected mind,
not oozing — not burning — with lust,
wander alone
like a rhinoceros.
Sutta Nipāta 1.3 - Khaggavisana Sutta
Image
See, Ānanda! All those conditioned phenomena have passed, ceased, and perished. So impermanent are conditions, so unstable are conditions, so unreliable are conditions. This is quite enough for you to become disillusioned, dispassionate, and freed regarding all conditions.
Dīgha Nikāya 17
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Re: Do everyone accept this refutation?

Post by cappuccino »

confusedlayman wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 1:06 pm Third buddhist council
I thought something went wrong here!
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Re: Do everyone accept this refutation?

Post by confusedlayman »

cappuccino wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 3:49 pm
confusedlayman wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 1:06 pm Third buddhist council
I thought something went wrong here!
why?
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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Re: Do everyone accept this refutation?

Post by cappuccino »

confusedlayman wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 4:01 pm why?
because it seems very odd to say a layperson can't become fully enlightened
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Re: Do everyone accept this refutation?

Post by Srilankaputra »

Ud 5.5 wrote:Just as the ocean has a gradual shelf, a gradual slope, a gradual inclination, with a sudden drop-off only after a long stretch, in the same way this Doctrine and Discipline (dhamma-vinaya) has a gradual training, a gradual performance, a gradual progression, with a penetration to gnosis only after a long stretch.
You can get a better idea of the meaning of 'penetration to gnosis(Aññāpaṭivedha)' with the following simile
Just as if there were a waste-water pool that had stood for countless years, where a man were to open all the inlets and block all the outlets, and the sky were to rain down in good streams of rain: the breaching of the waste-water pool's embankment would be expected; in the same way, the monk enters & remains in a certain peaceful awareness-release. He attends to the breaching of ignorance, and as he is attending to the breaching of ignorance his mind leaps up, grows confident, steadfast, & firm in the breaching of ignorance. For him the breaching of ignorance is to be expected.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

Wish you all success in all your endeavours. Goodbye!
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Re: Do everyone accept this refutation?

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta »

rhinoceroshorn wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 1:19 pm ...
3) IM SORRY?
Ud 5.5 wrote:Just as the ocean has a gradual shelf, a gradual slope, a gradual inclination, with a sudden drop-off only after a long stretch, in the same way this Doctrine and Discipline (dhamma-vinaya) has a gradual training, a gradual performance, a gradual progression, with a penetration to gnosis only after a long stretch.
...


Thanks.

:heart:
𝓑𝓾𝓭𝓭𝓱𝓪 𝓗𝓪𝓭 𝓤𝓷𝓮𝓺𝓾𝓲𝓿𝓸𝓬𝓪𝓵𝓵𝔂 𝓓𝓮𝓬𝓵𝓪𝓻𝓮𝓭 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽
  • Iᴅᴇᴀ ᴏꜰ Sᴏᴜʟ ɪs Oᴜᴛᴄᴏᴍᴇ ᴏꜰ ᴀɴ Uᴛᴛᴇʀʟʏ Fᴏᴏʟɪsʜ Vɪᴇᴡ
    V. Nanananda

𝓐𝓷𝓪𝓽𝓽ā 𝓜𝓮𝓪𝓷𝓼 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽 𝓣𝓱𝓮𝓻𝓮 𝓘𝓼
  • Nᴏ sᴜᴄʜ ᴛʜɪɴɢ ᴀs ᴀ Sᴇʟғ, Sᴏᴜʟ, Eɢᴏ, Sᴘɪʀɪᴛ, ᴏʀ Āᴛᴍᴀɴ
    V. Buddhādasa
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Re: Do everyone accept this refutation?

Post by Pondera »

cappuccino wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 4:02 pm
confusedlayman wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 4:01 pm why?
because it seems very odd to say a layperson can't become fully enlightened

Suttas mention that laypersons can become Arahants - however, upon becoming an Arahant, they must immediately join the sangha - otherwise - according to the sutta they will die within a week (or something to that effect). 🧐
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
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Re: Do everyone accept this refutation?

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta »

Pondera wrote: Thu Dec 03, 2020 1:42 am
cappuccino wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 4:02 pm
confusedlayman wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 4:01 pm why?
because it seems very odd to say a layperson can't become fully enlightened

Suttas mention that laypersons can become Arahants - however, upon becoming an Arahant, they must immediately join the sangha - otherwise - according to the sutta they will die within a week (or something to that effect). 🧐
:goodpost:
𝓑𝓾𝓭𝓭𝓱𝓪 𝓗𝓪𝓭 𝓤𝓷𝓮𝓺𝓾𝓲𝓿𝓸𝓬𝓪𝓵𝓵𝔂 𝓓𝓮𝓬𝓵𝓪𝓻𝓮𝓭 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽
  • Iᴅᴇᴀ ᴏꜰ Sᴏᴜʟ ɪs Oᴜᴛᴄᴏᴍᴇ ᴏꜰ ᴀɴ Uᴛᴛᴇʀʟʏ Fᴏᴏʟɪsʜ Vɪᴇᴡ
    V. Nanananda

𝓐𝓷𝓪𝓽𝓽ā 𝓜𝓮𝓪𝓷𝓼 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽 𝓣𝓱𝓮𝓻𝓮 𝓘𝓼
  • Nᴏ sᴜᴄʜ ᴛʜɪɴɢ ᴀs ᴀ Sᴇʟғ, Sᴏᴜʟ, Eɢᴏ, Sᴘɪʀɪᴛ, ᴏʀ Āᴛᴍᴀɴ
    V. Buddhādasa
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Re: Do everyone accept this refutation?

Post by cappuccino »

Pondera wrote: Thu Dec 03, 2020 1:42 am according to the sutta they will die within a week (or something to that effect).
from The Debate of King Milinda


“The fault does not lie with arahantship but with the
state of a layman, because it is too weak to support
arahantship. Just as, O king, although food protects the life
of beings it will take away the life of one whose digestion is
weak – so too, if a layman attains arahantship he must,
because of the weakness of that condition, enter the Order
that very day or die.”
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Re: Do everyone accept this refutation?

Post by Pondera »

cappuccino wrote: Thu Dec 03, 2020 3:12 am
Pondera wrote: Thu Dec 03, 2020 1:42 am according to the sutta they will die within a week (or something to that effect).
from The Debate of King Milinda


“The fault does not lie with arahantship but with the
state of a layman, because it is too weak to support
arahantship. Just as, O king, although food protects the life
of beings it will take away the life of one whose digestion is
weak – so too, if a layman attains arahantship he must,
because of the weakness of that condition, enter the Order
that very day or die.”
Interesting. Thank you for providing the source. 🙏
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
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