What is the origin of form?

Exploring the Dhamma, as understood from the perspective of the ancient Pali commentaries.
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zan
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What is the origin of form?

Post by zan »

A frequent statement in the suttas:
“Mendicants, I say that the ending of defilements is for one who knows and sees, not for one who does not know or see. For one who knows and sees what? ‘Such is form, such is the origin of form, such is the ending of form.
-SN 12.23
Does this simply refer to dependent origination? In which case the origin of form is explained in the sutta below? Does anyone know of any other suttas that may answer this question without directly referencing dependent origination?
‘Consciousness is a condition for name and form’—that’s what I said. And this is a way to understand how this is so. If consciousness were not conceived in the mother’s womb, would name and form coagulate there?”

“No, sir.”

“If consciousness, after being conceived in the mother’s womb, were to be miscarried, would name and form be born into this state of existence?”

“No, sir.”

“If the consciousness of a young boy or girl were to be cut off, would name and form achieve growth, increase, and maturity?”

“No, sir.”

“That’s why this is the cause, source, origin, and condition of name and form, namely consciousness.

‘Name and form are conditions for consciousness’—that’s what I said. And this is a way to understand how this is so. If consciousness were not to become established in name and form, would the coming to be of the origin of suffering—of rebirth, old age, and death in the future—be found?”

“No, sir.”

“That’s why this is the cause, source, origin, and condition of consciousness, namely name and form. This is the extent to which one may be reborn, grow old, die, pass away, or reappear. This is how far the scope of language, terminology, and description extends; how far the sphere of wisdom extends; how far the cycle of rebirths continues so that this state of existence is to be found; namely, name and form together with consciousness.
-DN 15
So basically, past kamma causes consciousness to enter a mother's womb, after which name and form may grow. If consciousness left the form of a person, they would die, leaving behind form only as a corpse without consciousness (see below), which, of course, cannot grow. Hence, the origin of form, and required for it's maintenance and continuation as anything but a corpse, is consciousness.
But at the time of death, kamma born material phenomena no longer arise starting with the stage of presence of the seventeenth consciousness preceding the death consciousness. Kamma born material phenomena that arose earlier occur till the death moment and then cease. Following that, the consciousnesss born and nutriment born material phenomena come to cessation. Thereafter, a continuity of material qualities produced by temperature persist in the form of a corpse.
-Abhidhammattha Sangaha, Bhikkhu Bodhi translation
Assume all of my words on dhamma could be incorrect. Seek an arahant for truth.


"If we base ourselves on the Pali Nikayas, then we should be compelled to conclude that Buddhism is realistic. There is no explicit denial anywhere of the external world. Nor is there any positive evidence to show that the world is mind-made or simply a projection of subjective thoughts. That Buddhism recognizes the extra-mental existence of matter and the external world is clearly suggested by the texts. Throughout the discourses it is the language of realism that one encounters.
-Y. Karunadasa
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Lucas Oliveira
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Re: What is the origin of form?

Post by Lucas Oliveira »

zan wrote: Fri Jan 15, 2021 1:06 am A frequent statement in the suttas:
“Mendicants, I say that the ending of defilements is for one who knows and sees, not for one who does not know or see. For one who knows and sees what? ‘Such is form, such is the origin of form, such is the ending of form.
-SN 12.23
Does this simply refer to dependent origination? In which case the origin of form is explained in the sutta below? Does anyone know of any other suttas that may answer this question without directly referencing dependent origination?
The Four Noble Truths!

:anjali:
I participate in this forum using Google Translator. http://translate.google.com.br

http://www.acessoaoinsight.net/
zan
Posts: 1402
Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2016 1:57 pm

Re: What is the origin of form?

Post by zan »

Lucas Oliveira wrote: Fri Jan 15, 2021 1:12 am
zan wrote: Fri Jan 15, 2021 1:06 am A frequent statement in the suttas:
“Mendicants, I say that the ending of defilements is for one who knows and sees, not for one who does not know or see. For one who knows and sees what? ‘Such is form, such is the origin of form, such is the ending of form.
-SN 12.23
Does this simply refer to dependent origination? In which case the origin of form is explained in the sutta below? Does anyone know of any other suttas that may answer this question without directly referencing dependent origination?
The Four Noble Truths!

:anjali:
The origin of form is the four noble truths? I'm not familiar with this teaching. Could you please provide a sutta where this is stated?
Assume all of my words on dhamma could be incorrect. Seek an arahant for truth.


"If we base ourselves on the Pali Nikayas, then we should be compelled to conclude that Buddhism is realistic. There is no explicit denial anywhere of the external world. Nor is there any positive evidence to show that the world is mind-made or simply a projection of subjective thoughts. That Buddhism recognizes the extra-mental existence of matter and the external world is clearly suggested by the texts. Throughout the discourses it is the language of realism that one encounters.
-Y. Karunadasa
pegembara
Posts: 3495
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Re: What is the origin of form?

Post by pegembara »

Better to consider the origin of the world.
The Blessed One said: "And what is the origination of the world? Dependent on the eye & forms there arises eye-consciousness. The meeting of the three is contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. This is the origination of the world.

"Dependent on the ear & sounds there arises ear-consciousness. ...

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
And the cessation
"And what is the ending of the world? Dependent on the eye & forms there arises eye-consciousness. The meeting of the three is contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. Now, from the remainderless cessation & fading away of that very craving comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering. This is the ending of the world.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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Lucas Oliveira
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Joined: Wed Jun 10, 2015 10:07 pm

Re: What is the origin of form?

Post by Lucas Oliveira »

zan wrote: Fri Jan 15, 2021 3:36 am
Lucas Oliveira wrote: Fri Jan 15, 2021 1:12 am
zan wrote: Fri Jan 15, 2021 1:06 am A frequent statement in the suttas:



Does this simply refer to dependent origination? In which case the origin of form is explained in the sutta below? Does anyone know of any other suttas that may answer this question without directly referencing dependent origination?
The Four Noble Truths!

:anjali:
The origin of form is the four noble truths? I'm not familiar with this teaching. Could you please provide a sutta where this is stated?
1
‘Such is form,
"Suffering, as a noble truth, is this: Birth is suffering, aging is suffering, sickness is suffering, death is suffering, sorrow and lamentation, pain, grief and despair are suffering; association with the loathed is suffering, dissociation from the loved is suffering, not to get what one wants is suffering — in short, suffering is the five categories of clinging objects.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .nymo.html
2
such is the origin of form,
"The origin of suffering, as a noble truth, is this: It is the craving that produces renewal of being accompanied by enjoyment and lust, and enjoying this and that; in other words, craving for sensual desires, craving for being, craving for non-being.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .nymo.html
3
such is the ending of form.
"Cessation of suffering, as a noble truth, is this: It is remainderless fading and ceasing, giving up, relinquishing, letting go and rejecting, of that same craving.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .nymo.html
4
"The way leading to cessation of suffering, as a noble truth, is this: It is simply the noble eightfold path, that is to say, right view, right intention; right speech, right action, right livelihood; right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .nymo.html
:anjali:
I participate in this forum using Google Translator. http://translate.google.com.br

http://www.acessoaoinsight.net/
zan
Posts: 1402
Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2016 1:57 pm

Re: What is the origin of form?

Post by zan »

Lucas Oliveira wrote: Fri Jan 15, 2021 4:15 am
zan wrote: Fri Jan 15, 2021 3:36 am
Lucas Oliveira wrote: Fri Jan 15, 2021 1:12 am

The Four Noble Truths!

:anjali:
The origin of form is the four noble truths? I'm not familiar with this teaching. Could you please provide a sutta where this is stated?
1
‘Such is form,
"Suffering, as a noble truth, is this: Birth is suffering, aging is suffering, sickness is suffering, death is suffering, sorrow and lamentation, pain, grief and despair are suffering; association with the loathed is suffering, dissociation from the loved is suffering, not to get what one wants is suffering — in short, suffering is the five categories of clinging objects.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .nymo.html
2
such is the origin of form,
"The origin of suffering, as a noble truth, is this: It is the craving that produces renewal of being accompanied by enjoyment and lust, and enjoying this and that; in other words, craving for sensual desires, craving for being, craving for non-being.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .nymo.html
3
such is the ending of form.
"Cessation of suffering, as a noble truth, is this: It is remainderless fading and ceasing, giving up, relinquishing, letting go and rejecting, of that same craving.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .nymo.html
4
"The way leading to cessation of suffering, as a noble truth, is this: It is simply the noble eightfold path, that is to say, right view, right intention; right speech, right action, right livelihood; right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .nymo.html
:anjali:
:clap:

I like the way you think! I hadn't considered this, but it seems to work out. The origin of suffering is craving, this craving causes a being to descend into a womb and take form.Thank you. I've read that all of the dhamma can be found within just those four truths. Perhaps there's something to this.
Assume all of my words on dhamma could be incorrect. Seek an arahant for truth.


"If we base ourselves on the Pali Nikayas, then we should be compelled to conclude that Buddhism is realistic. There is no explicit denial anywhere of the external world. Nor is there any positive evidence to show that the world is mind-made or simply a projection of subjective thoughts. That Buddhism recognizes the extra-mental existence of matter and the external world is clearly suggested by the texts. Throughout the discourses it is the language of realism that one encounters.
-Y. Karunadasa
User avatar
Lucas Oliveira
Posts: 1900
Joined: Wed Jun 10, 2015 10:07 pm

Re: What is the origin of form?

Post by Lucas Oliveira »

zan wrote: Fri Jan 15, 2021 1:06 am A frequent statement in the suttas:
“Mendicants, I say that the ending of defilements is for one who knows and sees, not for one who does not know or see. For one who knows and sees what? ‘Such is form, such is the origin of form, such is the ending of form.
-SN 12.23
When I read this statement in the Suttas, I immediately make a connection with the Four Noble Truths.

I remember Dependent Origination, but first the Four Noble Truths.

:anjali:
I participate in this forum using Google Translator. http://translate.google.com.br

http://www.acessoaoinsight.net/
zan
Posts: 1402
Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2016 1:57 pm

Re: What is the origin of form?

Post by zan »

Lucas Oliveira wrote: Fri Jan 15, 2021 3:48 pm
zan wrote: Fri Jan 15, 2021 1:06 am A frequent statement in the suttas:
“Mendicants, I say that the ending of defilements is for one who knows and sees, not for one who does not know or see. For one who knows and sees what? ‘Such is form, such is the origin of form, such is the ending of form.
-SN 12.23
When I read this statement in the Suttas, I immediately make a connection with the Four Noble Truths.

I remember Dependent Origination, but first the Four Noble Truths.

:anjali:
I mean, in the first sutta the Buddha ever spoke, he didn't even mention dependent origination. So perhaps it is best to think that way!
Assume all of my words on dhamma could be incorrect. Seek an arahant for truth.


"If we base ourselves on the Pali Nikayas, then we should be compelled to conclude that Buddhism is realistic. There is no explicit denial anywhere of the external world. Nor is there any positive evidence to show that the world is mind-made or simply a projection of subjective thoughts. That Buddhism recognizes the extra-mental existence of matter and the external world is clearly suggested by the texts. Throughout the discourses it is the language of realism that one encounters.
-Y. Karunadasa
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