zan wrote: ↑Tue Jan 26, 2021 7:55 pm
coconut wrote: ↑Tue Jan 26, 2021 7:45 pm
zan wrote: ↑Tue Jan 26, 2021 7:40 pm
Thank you. I have follow up questions, but first, forgive me, but I have to ask which position you come from? Do you believe that all things are imaginary or non existent or that there is a special consciousness outside the five aggregates that lives forever?
I hold neither annihilationist nor eternalist views.
Or do you hold the classical Theravada position that matter, like food, is real and is not generated by the mind, nor explained by a special consciousness outside the five aggregates because no such consciousness exists?
Food is real, the body is real, the mind is real. The Buddha does not say what happens after parinibbana because it's not applicable.
Apologies, but the vast majority of users on this site hold the Yogacara position that all is mind or the Madhyamaka position that nothing exists, or the position that a special consciousness outside the aggregates answers most questions, and so it is important to know where someone is coming from before engaging them, as we may be coming from totally incompatible, irreconcilable positions. I hold the classical Theravada position.
My view is rare on this site.
Okay! Thank you! Rare indeed!
So, what if we approach it from another angle? I clearly am having trouble with the approach you and Dootdoot are using, which appears to be similar.
Let's say hypothetically I state that "Apples appear out of thin air for anyone who desires (craves for) them. If no one had any desire for them, there would be no such thing as apples. Because apples are food, SN 12.11 supports my position."
How could you refute my position? I do not at all understand how your most recent explanation refutes this misunderstanding of SN 12.11. This is due to my own failings, obviously.
Or even another angle (I am asking this strictly from the perspective of the classical Theravada, which is that land is not generated by kamma and matter is not subjective, and the tejo element can generate insentient matter all on it's own, and so other planets can exist [see Katthavatthu and Abhidhammattha Sangaha]): What about food that is nowhere near a being: a hypothetical planet with no sentient life on it, but that does have apple trees. Does SN 12.11 declare that the apples (food) on this planet, that will never have sentient beings on it, were generated by craving?
What about some hypothetical biscuit crumbs accidentally left on the golden record put inside the Voyager and launched in 1977? Are they floating out there, billions of miles away, and per SN 12.11, are being generated by craving?
Per the Abhidhammattha Sangaha, apples (food) on distant planets would be generated purely by the tejo element, not craving. Hence my difficulty with SN 12.11.
What is an apple?
Is it a fruit?
what is a fruit?
What buds on trees?
What flowers on trees?
What landed on the flower looking for refuge?
What is refuge?
If a bee or other insect can reach the nibbana of becoming seeking refuge... once thinking; Hive was kinship, hive was the source of happiness, food and sustenance, why can't you or anyone else?
Tree not letting go of bee, it is a source of food and sustenance... Humans and Daeva alike give praise, hommage and honor to the tree that bears fruit. So are flowers really a refuge?
For the bee?
Fruit is the tree's currency; it''s favor in being a Daeva among other trees.
Yet they live no different than human or the bee thinking of kinship, happiness, food and sustenance.
Parinibbana for the bee, the tree? When there is nothing further to ever become as living a life, knowing a life.
On "Buddha ground" I saw a bhikkhu reach down and kill an "Ant" biting on the bhikkhu, sharing the same food when cast out, I suppose so. The sutta that comes to mind for bhikkhu and little brother? He hit me, he abused me, etc. etc.
Hungry ghosts for dhamma
... both big brother and little brother wearing the same color robes were in the correct place; As I've learned food is why the abbot first became a bhikkhu over 70 years ago.
What has happened; Is that which has yet to come. What will be ...Already is.