Potthapada And Nihilism

Exploring the Dhamma, as understood from the perspective of the ancient Pali commentaries.
Post Reply
Subcontrary
Posts: 1
Joined: Sat Jan 30, 2021 5:52 pm

Potthapada And Nihilism

Post by Subcontrary »

Hello!

I have been reflecting on the Poṭṭhapāda Sutta, and the section below has perturbed me a little:
“Furthermore, a mendicant, going totally beyond the dimension of infinite consciousness, aware that ‘there is nothing at all’, enters and remains in the dimension of nothingness. The subtle and true perception of the dimension of infinite consciousness that they had previously ceases. At that time they have a subtle and true perception of the dimension of nothingness. That’s how, with training, certain perceptions arise and certain perceptions cease. And this is that training,” said the Buddha.
Specifically the Buddha describing a mendicant being "aware that 'there is nothing at all,'" which seems like such a stark endorsement of nihilism. I am generally aware that the Buddha denied nihilism in general, and that often the subtle term "sunyata" is clumsily interpreted as meaning "nothing," but here it is very difficult to see what the Buddha could possibly mean besides that nihilism is the correct viewpoint.

I am quite a beginner when it comes to Buddhism, and am rather confident that I have interpreted this section incorrectly, but I have had great difficulty seeing how. It does not appear to me, for example, that the Buddha was describing a false view, which I mistakenly interpreted as an endorsement. I'm not totally convinced of the possibility that he is discussing sunyata, because of that emphatic "there is nothing at all." If someone pointed to this sutta as proof that the Buddha endorsed nihilism, or that Buddhism is nihilistic, I would not know how on earth to counter the assertion.

Could there be a translation issue here? I read the sutta at https://suttacentral.net/dn9/en/sujato

Thank you for any clarification you can offer me!
User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 12032
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Potthapada And Nihilism

Post by DooDoot »

Subcontrary wrote: Sun Jan 31, 2021 1:34 am Specifically the Buddha describing a mendicant being "aware that 'there is nothing at all,'" which seems like such a stark endorsement of nihilism.
The sphere of nothingness (ākiñcaññāyatana) is not an enlightened state therefore reference to it is not an endorsement of nihilism. For example, in MN 26, Gotama entered the sphere of nothingness under the instruction of the teacher Āḷāra Kālāma but Gotama intuitively declared it was not Nibbana; rejected it; and continued his Noble Search, elsewhere.

Also, the sphere of nothingness is not really synonymous with a doctrine of nihilism (such as natthikavāda; akiriyavāda; or ahetukavāda). The sphere of nothingness is merely a natural meditative state where the mind becomes so still, pure/clear and silent that no salient object of perception exists, apart from the perception: "There is nothing". The description of the sphere of nothingness is merely the salient meditative experience of the mind in that particular present moment. It is not a comment or view towards anything else.

It is as if you enter into a room empty of furniture, people and things and you perceive: "there is nothing in this room". This does not mean you are declaring there is nothing outside of the room.
Subcontrary wrote: Sun Jan 31, 2021 1:34 amI am generally aware that the Buddha denied nihilism in general, and that often the subtle term "sunyata" is clumsily interpreted as meaning "nothing,"
No. Sunnata never means "nothing". Sunnata means "the state of emptiness [of self]". Refer to the Sunna Sutta.
Subcontrary wrote: Sun Jan 31, 2021 1:34 amI am quite a beginner when it comes to Buddhism, and am rather confident that I have interpreted this section incorrectly
Yes. It is always proper to be confident in the Teachings therefore to be confident we are interpreting incorrectly when struggling to comprehend. On this forum, most of the run-of-the-mill doubt the scriptures rather than doubt themselves.
Subcontrary wrote: Sun Jan 31, 2021 1:34 am I'm not totally convinced of the possibility that he is discussing sunyata, because of that emphatic "there is nothing at all."
Buddhas are not sloppy with words. Teachings of Buddhas are generally literal rather than to be interpreted. If the Buddha was referring to sunnata, he would have used the word "sunnata" or "sunna".

Kind regards and welcome :)
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
SunWuKong
Posts: 58
Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2017 11:41 pm
Location: Alexandria, Virginia

Re: Potthapada And Nihilism

Post by SunWuKong »

The discussion in the Sutta is on the Cessation of Perception... this isn't elementary Buddhist teaching by the way. Without agreeing or disagreeing with what others may want to say about this topic, giving it a fresh go, you'll see that in this Sutta the rupa and arupa jhanas are being discussed. Having never experienced the arupa jhana called "infinite space" I certainly can't comment on what the one called "Cessation of Perception" is like. I would assume there is some way to know or understand this jhana - that awareness is maintained, even in the midst of the formless, and that all thought, feeling, emotion, senses, perception, it all ceases. One is only Awake, Aware, without a something or somethings to be aware of.

Buddha could never taught anything about Nihilism, the belief system doesn't even occur until about 1900, in Russia. We'd need an actual Buddhist scholar to tell us what he did actually say, but I won't comment on it until we see it, if we ever do. It could be a fable or old-wives tale that it was ever said.

Comparing Cessation of Perception and Nihilism is like comparing a copper penny to a baby duck's feathers. The one is an experience in (or out of) meditation, the other is a philosophical conjecture. It's comparing things that are in totally different categories.
User avatar
cappuccino
Posts: 12879
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am
Contact:

Re: Potthapada And Nihilism

Post by cappuccino »

Subcontrary wrote: Sun Jan 31, 2021 1:34 am which seems like such a stark endorsement of nihilism.
nihilism is an attitude


such as nothing is true and nothing matters


whereas nothingness is a perception


meditation on nothingness is meaningful


however, there is better
pegembara
Posts: 3465
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2009 8:39 am

Re: Potthapada And Nihilism

Post by pegembara »

Subcontrary wrote: Sun Jan 31, 2021 1:34 am Hello!

I have been reflecting on the Poṭṭhapāda Sutta, and the section below has perturbed me a little:
“Furthermore, a mendicant, going totally beyond the dimension of infinite consciousness, aware that ‘there is nothing at all’, enters and remains in the dimension of nothingness. The subtle and true perception of the dimension of infinite consciousness that they had previously ceases. At that time they have a subtle and true perception of the dimension of nothingness. That’s how, with training, certain perceptions arise and certain perceptions cease. And this is that training,” said the Buddha.
Specifically the Buddha describing a mendicant being "aware that 'there is nothing at all,'" which seems like such a stark endorsement of nihilism. I am generally aware that the Buddha denied nihilism in general, and that often the subtle term "sunyata" is clumsily interpreted as meaning "nothing," but here it is very difficult to see what the Buddha could possibly mean besides that nihilism is the correct viewpoint.

I am quite a beginner when it comes to Buddhism, and am rather confident that I have interpreted this section incorrectly, but I have had great difficulty seeing how. It does not appear to me, for example, that the Buddha was describing a false view, which I mistakenly interpreted as an endorsement. I'm not totally convinced of the possibility that he is discussing sunyata, because of that emphatic "there is nothing at all." If someone pointed to this sutta as proof that the Buddha endorsed nihilism, or that Buddhism is nihilistic, I would not know how on earth to counter the assertion.

Could there be a translation issue here? I read the sutta at https://suttacentral.net/dn9/en/sujato

Thank you for any clarification you can offer me!
Nihilism(nothing in the end) is not endorsed but compared to eternalism is somewhat "better" because it leads to dispassion. Not the right view but somewhat closer to it.
"Monks, an uninstructed run-of-the-mill person might grow disenchanted with this body composed of the four great elements, might grow dispassionate toward it, might gain release from it. Why is that? Because the growth & decline, the taking up & putting down of this body composed of the four great elements are apparent. Thus the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person might grow disenchanted, might grow dispassionate, might gain release there.

"It would be better for the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person to hold to the body composed of the four great elements, rather than the mind, as the self. Why is that? Because this body composed of the four great elements is seen standing for a year, two years, three, four, five, ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, a hundred years or more. But what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness' by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another. Just as a monkey, swinging through a forest wilderness, grabs a branch. Letting go of it, it grabs another branch. Letting go of that, it grabs another one. Letting go of that, it grabs another one. In the same way, what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness' by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another.

"The instructed disciple of the noble ones, [however,] attends carefully & appropriately right there at the dependent co-arising:

"'When this is, that is.

"'From the arising of this comes the arising of that.

"'When this isn't, that isn't.

"'From the cessation of this comes the cessation of that.


https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
Post Reply