Fire Sermon: what day?

Exploring the Dhamma, as understood from the perspective of the ancient Pali commentaries.
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UpasakaAbhaya
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Fire Sermon: what day?

Post by UpasakaAbhaya »

Dear Friends in Dhamma,

I have read (from Burmese sources) that the Anattalakkhana Sutta was preached some five days after (a Thursday) the Dhammacakkapavatana Sutta (a Saturday).

I don't really mean to ask what day of the week the Fire Sermon was delivered; rather is there a fixed date ascribed to the Fire Sermon, by the commentaries or otherwise? I believe it was during the first year of the Sasana, but it doesn't seem clear beyond that.

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mikenz66
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Re: Fire Sermon: what day?

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi UpasakaAbhaya,
UpasakaAbhaya wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 9:03 pm I don't really mean to ask what day of the week the Fire Sermon was delivered; rather is there a fixed date ascribed to the Fire Sermon, by the commentaries or otherwise? I believe it was during the first year of the Sasana, but it doesn't seem clear beyond that.
The sequence is described in the Khandaka of the Vinaya. https://suttacentral.net/pli-tv-kd1/en/horner-brahmali
After the first two Suttas, there is this section:
On the miracles at Uruvelā

Then the Lord, walking on tour, in due course arrived at Uruvelā. Now at that time three matted hair ascetics, Kassapa of Uruvelā, Kassapa of the River, Kassapa of Gayā, were living at Uruvelā. Of these, the matted hair ascetic Kassapa of Uruvelā was leader, guide, highest, chief, head of BD.4.33 five hundred matted hair ascetics; the matted hair ascetic Kassapa of the River was leader … head of three hundred matted hair ascetics; the matted hair ascetic Kassapa of Gayā was leader … head of two hundred matted hair ascetics.
...
https://suttacentral.net/pli-tv-kd1/en/ ... #Kd.1.14.6
I'm not sure how long walking on tour, in due course is, but it sounds reasonably soon...

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Dhammanando
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Re: Fire Sermon: what day?

Post by Dhammanando »

UpasakaAbhaya wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 9:03 pm
I don't really mean to ask what day of the week the Fire Sermon was delivered; rather is there a fixed date ascribed to the Fire Sermon, by the commentaries or otherwise?
Yes, the report that it was five days after the Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta is from the commentaries and chronicles: J.i.82; iv.180; Dpv.i.34; MA.i.390; AA.i.57, 84).
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In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
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pitakele
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Re: Fire Sermon: what day?

Post by pitakele »

mikenz66 wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 9:18 pm I'm not sure how long walking on tour, in due course is, but it sounds reasonably soon...
However long it took to walk @ 250 km ....
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DooDoot
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Re: Fire Sermon: what day?

Post by DooDoot »

Dhammanando wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 9:55 pm Yes, the report that it was five days after the Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta is from the commentaries and chronicles: J.i.82; iv.180; Dpv.i.34; MA.i.390; AA.i.57, 84).
While off-topic, when were the first bhikkhunis ordained according to the sources? Thank you
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mikenz66
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Re: Fire Sermon: what day?

Post by mikenz66 »

It seems that after each attained stream entry they asked for ordination:
These, having seen dhamma, attained dhamma, known dhamma … having attained without another’s help to full confidence in the teacher’s instruction, spoke thus to the Lord: “May we, Lord, receive the going forth in the Lord’s presence, may we receive ordination?”

“Come, monks,” the Lord said, “well taught is dhamma, fare 1.13 the Brahma-faring for making an utter end of ill.” So this came to be these venerable ones’ ordination.
https://suttacentral.net/pli-tv-kd1/en/horner-brahmali
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Dhammanando
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Re: Fire Sermon: what day?

Post by Dhammanando »

DooDoot wrote: Sat Feb 13, 2021 4:23 am While off-topic, when were the first bhikkhunis ordained according to the sources? Thank you
The canon doesn't say. The commentaries say it was after the fifth vassa after the Buddha's enlightenment.

Also, with regard to the Brasington thesis in the other thread (i.e., that Ānanda was much younger than the Buddha and only a teenager when the bhikkhunīsangha was established), the commentaries say that they were actually of the same age. Brasington would no doubt retort that he doesn't accept the commentaries. But the problem then is that his own argument depends on the commentarial fixing of the date of the bhikkhunīsangha's founding. Either Brasington doesn't know this, or he does know it but is just cherry-picking those commentarial passages that will support his pet theory.
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.


In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
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DooDoot
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Re: Fire Sermon: what day?

Post by DooDoot »

Dhammanando wrote: Sat Feb 13, 2021 6:49 am The canon doesn't say. The commentaries say it was after the fifth vassa after the Buddha's enlightenment.

Also, with regard to the Brasington thesis...
While the Brasington thesis appears unfounded to me, regardless, Thag 17.3 indicates Ananda was the Buddha's attendant from age 55 therefore it appears unlikely Ananda would have been a key player with the bhikkhuni ordination. The impression of AN 8.51 is Ananda was the attendant of the Buddha.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Dhammanando
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Re: Fire Sermon: what day?

Post by Dhammanando »

DooDoot wrote: Sat Feb 13, 2021 7:07 am While the Brasington thesis appears unfounded to me, regardless, Thag 17.3 indicates Ananda was the Buddha's attendant from age 55
Yes. An account of his appointment is given in the introduction to the Junha Jātaka:
During the twenty years of his first Buddhahood the Blessed One’s attendants were not always the same: sometimes Elder Nagasamala, sometimes Nagita, Upavana, Sunakkhatta, Cunda, Sagala, sometimes Meghiya waited upon the Blessed One. One day the Blessed One said to the Brethren: “Now I am old, Brethren: and when I say, Let us go in this way, some of the Brotherhood go by another way, some drop my bowl and robe on the ground. Choose out one Brother to attend always upon me.”

Then they uprose all, beginning with Elder Sariputta, and laid their joined hands to their heads, crying, “I will serve you, Sir, I will serve you!” But he refused them, saying, “Your prayer is forestalled! enough.”

Then the Brethren said to the Elder Ananda, “Do you, friend, ask for the post of attendant.”

The Elder said, “If the Blessed One will not give me the robe which he himself has received, if he will not give me his dole of food, if he will not grant me to dwell in the same fragrant cell, if he will not have me with him to go where he is invited: but if the Blessed One will go with me where I am invited, if I shall be granted to introduce the company at the moment of coming, which comes from foreign parts and foreign countries to see the Blessed One, if I shall be granted to approach the Blessed One as soon as doubt shall arise, if whenever the Blessed One shall discourse in my absence he will repeat his discourse to me as soon as I shall return: then I will attend upon the Blessed One.” These eight boons he craved, four negative and four positive. And the Blessed One granted them to him.

After that he attended continually upon his Master for five and twenty years.

https://legacy.suttacentral.net/en/ja456
DooDoot wrote: Sat Feb 13, 2021 7:07 am therefore it appears unlikely Ananda would have been a key player with the bhikkhuni ordination. The impression of AN 8.51 is Ananda was the attendant of the Buddha.
AN 8.51 gives no indication one way or the other as to whether Ānanda was the Buddha's attendant at the time.

Given Ananda's cousinship with the Buddha, along with his much-iterated devotion to the Buddha's person, it wouldn't be surprising to find him living in close proximity even before being appointed as attendant.
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.


In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
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DooDoot
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Re: Fire Sermon: what day?

Post by DooDoot »

Dhammanando wrote: Sat Feb 13, 2021 12:27 pm Yes. An account of his appointment is given in the introduction to the Junha Jātaka... AN 8.51 gives no indication one way or the other as to whether Ānanda was the Buddha's attendant at the time.... Given Ananda's cousinship with the Buddha, along with his much-iterated devotion to the Buddha's person, it wouldn't be surprising to find him living in close proximity even before being appointed as attendant.
Thank you Venerable. :bow:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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salayatananirodha
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Re: Fire Sermon: what day?

Post by salayatananirodha »

pitakele wrote: Sat Feb 13, 2021 4:05 am
mikenz66 wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 9:18 pm I'm not sure how long walking on tour, in due course is, but it sounds reasonably soon...
However long it took to walk @ 250 km ....
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an06/an06.055.than.html wrote:Then the Blessed One, as soon as he perceived with his awareness the train of thought in Ven. Sona's awareness — as a strong man might stretch out his bent arm or bend his outstretched arm — disappeared from Vulture Peak Mountain, appeared in the Cool Wood right in front of Ven. Sona, and sat down on a prepared seat.
who's to say he walked?
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