Hindrances and Fetters

[SteRo]

Why "only"? The topic has been restlessness and nothing else.

No. The topic includes the hindrance. The hindrance is called "restlessness-&-remorse".

The hindrance is not called "restlessness".

But here the focus was on the aspect restlessness. Therefore the topic has been restlessness from the outset. You can't say that restlessness isn't a hindrance because a it appears together with remorse.

[DooDoot]

But here the focus was on the aspect restlessness. Therefore the topic has been restlessness from the outset. You can't say that restlessness isn't a hindrance because a it appears together with remorse.

No. The hindrance is called restlessness & remorse. The topic is called hindrances & fetters. it is best to post with integrity & discipline. Venerable Dhammanando has said:

I suppose that it would be, since the hindrance is always given as uddhacca-kukkucca, rather than just uddhacca.

The commentaries always treat it as a copulative compound (i.e., uddhaccañca kukkuccañca) and the evidence for its being so comes as early as the Dhammasaṅgaṇī, Vibhaṅga and the Peṭakopadesa. To quote from the last-named:

Tattha katamaṃ uddhaccaṃ? Yo avūpasamo cittassa, idaṃ uddhaccaṃ. Tattha katamaṃ kukkuccaṃ? Yo cetaso vilekho alañcanā vilañcanā hadayalekho vippaṭisāro, idaṃ kukkuccaṃ. Iti idañca kukkuccaṃ purimakañca uddhaccaṃ tadubhayaṃ uddhaccakukkuccanīvaraṇanti vuccati.

“Herein, what is agitation? Any disquiet of mind is agitation. Herein, what is worry? Any rasping of mind, guilt, guiltiness, rasping-in-the-heart, remorse, this is worry. This worry and the agitation mentioned above are together called the hindrance of agitation-and-worry.”

Piya Tan has written a good overview of the hindrances based on both early and later texts.

Five Hindrances

According to the Abhidhamma the hindrance of restlessness in a worldling, stream-entrant, or once-returner and the fetter of restlessness in a non-returner are one and the same mental factor. What distinguishes them is:

The fetter of restlessness in a non-returner would never arise in an aversion-motivated consciousness (dosamūla citta). And …

Unlike the hindrance of restlessness it would never be accompanied by worry/remorse (kukkucca).

https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/do ... ces/5847/6

[SteRo]

But here the focus was on the aspect restlessness. Therefore the topic has been restlessness from the outset. You can't say that restlessness isn't a hindrance because a it appears together with remorse.

No. The hindrance is called restlessness & remorse.

If you think that means that restlessness isn't a hindrance then

[DooDoot]

If you think that means that restlessness isn't a hindrance then

Correct. The hindrance is called "restlessness & remorse".

If this description is not conclusive then it requires further investigation of the texts. Since the learned Venerable Dhammanando only cited commentary material, i imagine the suttas may not be totally clear about the meaning.

In short, on face value, the hindrance is called restlessness & remorse rather than restlessness.

I imagine it means "agitation & remorse". "Agitation" is a better word connected to "remorse".

If the restlessness was not related to the remorse then i imagine there would be six hindrances instead of five.

To conclude, it is you rather myself that is required to substantiate your point of view because it is you that is arguing against the literal description of the suttas and commentaries.

I am going to the beach now. I generally only post when i am working. I have better things to do .

[SteRo]

If you think that means that restlessness isn't a hindrance then

Correct....

Then there is a dissent.

[JohnK]

Thank you for the thoughts regarding sloth/torpor.

[asahi]

I just noticed that 4 of the 5 hindrances appear to have correlates in the fetters -- doubt (among the first three fetters), sense desire and ill-will (among the remaining two of the lower 5 fetters), and restlessness (among the higher 5 fetters). Just wondering about sloth/torpor -- not a fetter? Perhaps sloth/torpor derives from one of the previous fetters and so is taken care of? Thoughts?

It appear restlessness meaning is being agitated mind , not able to calm down the mind therefore one is unable to attain jhana . Now , i wonder if have other explanations ? If a non returner is unable to calm his/her mind would s/he cut-off the prior 3 fetters and abandoned the kama loka fetters and weakened rupa loka fetters ?

[pitithefool]

Hindrances are short term and immediate, fetters are long-term patterns of behavior.

The comments higher on this thread are from wise posters

[confusedlayman]

restlessness is agitation but what is the object of agitation? maybe for non returner when he is not in jhana he might crave to experience jhana soon and dont want to spend more time in 5 sense world apart from eating, dhamma talk, walking etc...

restlessness for puthujana is what will happen to me tomorrow? what donut can I buy next month? what if I die now? oops. why is this xx website blocked in my country? etc etc etc

[BrokenBones]

Restless remorse?

Whoever is correct, I see that this thread has covered all the hindrances apart from sloth & torpor... time for bed.

[confusedlayman]

Restless remorse?

Whoever is correct, I see that this thread has covered all the hindrances apart from sloth & torpor... time for bed.

sloth and torpor can be avoided by inducing rapture (metta or sympathetic joy or reflecting on own vituries. virtues of sangha etc)