Hindrances and Fetters

Exploring the Dhamma, as understood from the perspective of the ancient Pali commentaries.
JohnK
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Hindrances and Fetters

Post by JohnK »

I just noticed that 4 of the 5 hindrances appear to have correlates in the fetters -- doubt (among the first three fetters), sense desire and ill-will (among the remaining two of the lower 5 fetters), and restlessness (among the higher 5 fetters). Just wondering about sloth/torpor -- not a fetter? Perhaps sloth/torpor derives from one of the previous fetters and so is taken care of? Thoughts?
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Re: Hindrances and Fetters

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JohnK wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 8:58 pm Just wondering about sloth/torpor -- not a fetter? Perhaps sloth/torpor derives from one of the previous fetters and so is taken care of? Thoughts?
If you look at the fetters these have in common an impulse or impulsiveness, a misguided energy. sloth and drowsiness (thina-middha) seem to be passiveness, lack of energy.
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Re: Hindrances and Fetters

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SteRo wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 9:18 pm If you look at the fetters these have in common...
Restlessness (uddhacca) as a fetter appears not the same as restlessness & remorse (uddhaccakukkucca) as a hindrance.

Restlessness as a hindrance i imagine is connected to a lack of calm (samatha); even connected to the results of sensual indulgence; and an obstacle to samadhi.

Where as restlessness as a fetter can apply to jhanic non-returners and applies more to restlessness about more subtle matters; such as thinking: "All the monks around me are puthujjana; should i start my own monastery; should i become a Guru; should i keep silent; now that i enlightened, what do i do with my life???, etc". .
JohnK wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 8:58 pmJust wondering about sloth/torpor -- not a fetter? Perhaps sloth/torpor derives from one of the previous fetters and so is taken care of? Thoughts?
I imagine the fetters are about definitive defilements that lead to definitive modes of becoming (bhava) and, when cut, represent enormous achievements. Where as sloth & torpor does not fit this criteria.
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Re: Hindrances and Fetters

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DooDoot wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 5:41 am
SteRo wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 9:18 pm If you look at the fetters these have in common...
Restlessness (uddhacca) as a fetter appears not the same as restlessness & remorse (uddhaccakukkucca) as a hindrance.

Restlessness as a hindrance i imagine is connected to a lack of calm (samatha); even connected to the results of sensual indulgence; and an obstacle to samadhi.

Where as restlessness as a fetter can apply to jhanic non-returners and applies more to restlessness about more subtle matters; such as thinking: "All the monks around me are puthujjana; should i start my own monastery; should i become a Guru; should i keep silent; now that i enlightened, what do i do with my life???, etc". .
Nyanatiloka does not differentiate between fetter and hindrance the way you do:
uddhacca: 'restlessness', belongs to the 10 fetters (samyojana, q.v.), and to the 5 hindrances (nīvarana, q.v.). It is one of those 4 mental factors inseparably associated with all unwholesome consciousness (akusala-sādhārana, q.v.)
https://www.dhammatalks.net/Buddhist.Di ... dic3_u.htm
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Re: Hindrances and Fetters

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SteRo wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 2:02 pm Nyanatiloka does not differentiate between fetter and hindrance the way you do:
What makes you think Nyanatiloka understood Dhamma better? You appear to be saying the uddhaccakukkucca of a puthujjana hindering samadhi is the same as the fetter of uddhacca of a Non-Returner? :roll:
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Re: Hindrances and Fetters

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DooDoot wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 5:02 am
SteRo wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 2:02 pm Nyanatiloka does not differentiate between fetter and hindrance the way you do:
What makes you think Nyanatiloka understood Dhamma better? You appear to be saying the uddhaccakukkucca of a puthujjana hindering samadhi is the same as the fetter of uddhacca of a Non-Returner? :roll:
Yes it's the same. Restlessness is restlessness no matter what objects bother the restless mind.
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Re: Hindrances and Fetters

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SteRo wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 5:15 am Yes it's the same. Restlessness is restlessness no matter what objects bother the restless mind.
Obviously the above words are rash & unlearned.

Uddhaccakukkucca is a word compound suggesting the restlessness occurs in relation to remorse. The commentaries always treat it as a copulative compound. The Peṭakopadesa says:
Tattha katamaṃ uddhaccaṃ? Yo avūpasamo cittassa, idaṃ uddhaccaṃ. Tattha katamaṃ kukkuccaṃ? Yo cetaso vilekho alañcanā vilañcanā hadayalekho vippaṭisāro, idaṃ kukkuccaṃ. Iti idañca kukkuccaṃ purimakañca uddhaccaṃ tadubhayaṃ uddhaccakukkuccanīvaraṇanti vuccati.

“Herein, what is agitation? Any disquiet of mind is agitation. Herein, what is worry? Any rasping of mind, guilt, guiltiness, rasping-in-the-heart, remorse, this is worry. This worry and the agitation mentioned above are together called the hindrance of agitation-and-worry.”
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Re: Hindrances and Fetters

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DooDoot wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 5:19 am
SteRo wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 5:15 am Yes it's the same. Restlessness is restlessness no matter what objects bother the restless mind.
Obviously the above words are rash & unlearned.

Uddhaccakukkucca is a word compound suggesting the restlessness occurs in relation to remorse.
But that is your interpretation. Nyanatiloka speaks of uddhacca in both cases.
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Re: Hindrances and Fetters

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SteRo wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 5:23 am But that is your interpretation. Nyanatiloka speaks of uddhacca in both cases.
The above is a pretty dumb or irrelevant reply because it is only Nyanatiloka's interpretation. :rolleye:

According to the Abhidhamma, the hindrance of restlessness in a worldling, stream-entrant or once-returner and the fetter of restlessness in a non-returner are one and the same mental factor but what distinguishes them is:

* The fetter of restlessness in a non-returner would never arise in an aversion-motivated consciousness (dosamūla citta).

* Unlike the hindrance of restlessness, the fetter of restlessness in a non-returner would never be accompanied by worry/remorse (kukkucca).

An example of the fetter of a Non-Returner is Piṅgiya, who while listening to the Buddha teaching, saw the beauty and truth of the Dharma, which could have liberated him as an arahat. However, at that very moment, he compassionately thought of his uncle and teacher, Bāvarī, and, as a result, become only a non-returner, while all his other colleagues and their follower, and his own followers, all become arahats.

Nyanatiloka is plainly wrong because the hindrance is/can be accompanied by remorse. :smile:

In summary, 'uddhaccakukkucca' is a word compound like 'namarupa'. 'Namarupa' is not the same as 'rupa' alone or 'nama' alone. Please try to have common sense. :mrgreen:
Last edited by DooDoot on Wed Feb 17, 2021 5:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Hindrances and Fetters

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DooDoot wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 5:30 am
SteRo wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 5:23 am But that is your interpretation. Nyanatiloka speaks of uddhacca in both cases.
...

According to the Abhidhamma, the hindrance of restlessness in a worldling, stream-entrant or once-returner and the fetter of restlessness in a non-returner are one and the same mental factor ...
That is what Nyanatiloka says and what I support. So what are you arguing about?
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Re: Hindrances and Fetters

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SteRo wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 5:37 am That is what Nyanatiloka says and what I support.
No. The Abhidhamma has distinguished the fetter from the hindrance. You appear to be deliberately subverting the Abhidhamma.

The Abhidhamma say what is the same is only the "restlessness". It does not say the "remorse" is the same.

It is the same as saying the nama in namarupa is the same as nama alone but nama alone is not namarupa.

Its the same as saying the West Bank included in Israel is not the same as the West Bank when it was Palestine; even though the West Bank remains the same location.
Last edited by DooDoot on Wed Feb 17, 2021 5:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Hindrances and Fetters

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DooDoot wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 5:40 am
SteRo wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 5:37 am That is what Nyanatiloka says and what I support.
No.
I have provided the quote and I know better then you what I support.
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Re: Hindrances and Fetters

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SteRo wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 5:42 am I have provided the quote and I know better then you what I support.
The Abhidhamma says what is the same is only the "restlessness". It does not say the "remorse" is the same.

Obviously, you cannot read clearly.

In summary, uddhaccakukkucca cannot ever be the same as uddhacca; just as namarupa cannot ever be the same as nama.

:hello:
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Re: Hindrances and Fetters

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DooDoot wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 5:43 am
SteRo wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 5:42 am I have provided the quote and I know better then you what I support.
The Abhidhamma says what is the same is only the "restlessness"....
Why "only"? The topic has been restlessness and nothing else. It is you who deviates from the topic ... maybe due to restlessness?
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Re: Hindrances and Fetters

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SteRo wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 5:46 amIt is you who deviates from the topic ... maybe due to restlessness?
It is best to not engage in false speech. :thanks:
SteRo wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 5:46 amWhy "only"? The topic has been restlessness and nothing else.
No. The topic includes the hindrance. The hindrance is called "restlessness-&-remorse".

The hindrance is not called "restlessness".
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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