Where do emotions fit into Paticca-Samuppada?

Exploring the Dhamma, as understood from the perspective of the ancient Pali commentaries.
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pitithefool
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Re: Where do emotions fit into Paticca-Samuppada?

Post by pitithefool »

DooDoot wrote: Sun Mar 14, 2021 11:22 pm If emotions were "sankhara", why were 12 conditions taught instead of merely 2 conditions? Surely, emotions are already dukkha. :shrug:

Btw, how do the Pali suttas define "sankhara"? What is the Pali here? Thanks :thanks:
DO present the entire path. I feel as though the first two conditions are most relevant for the question.

I'll try and explain in terms of the steps from contact to becoming as well

Based on our emotions, we seek contact (sensory stimulus).
Also, based on that sensory stimulus, there is feeling, which also conditions the formation of more emotions.
Then we're back where we started.
We either want to feel the emotion again, we want it to stop, or we ignore it.
That then conditions how we act in the future, seeking out pleasure, avoiding pain, or ignoring neutral emotions. (becoming)
From there we engage in acts and take on identities that suit the factors of conditioning (birth)

I want to apologize, as far as I'm aware, there isn't really a pali correlate for the word emotion, so I'm treating it here like feeling and like sankhara.
It's also important to note that it is both and that craving is also listed as an emotion in english.

Is this making sense? I hope so. if not let me know.

Sankhara in Pali is pretty difficult to translate but most broadly in means "conditioned phenomena". In this context, a translation might be "volition"
but I don't think that quite captures the range of the term. "Fabrication" is pretty good because it does cover things like thoughts, emotions, volitions and complex mental objects. It's important to note though that it also includes things made of matter and generally most of our reality. Asphalt is a sankhara, as is the concept associated with it, the feelings surrounding it, what you plan on doing with it, and everything else too. The meaning of sankhara is pretty dependent on the context too and it should be noted that the entirety of its meaning does in fact apply in DO.

Please let me know, I hope this helps :namaste:
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DooDoot
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Re: Where do emotions fit into Paticca-Samuppada?

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pitithefool wrote: Mon Mar 15, 2021 12:25 am DO present the entire path.
SN 12.3 calls dependent origination the "wrong path". https://suttacentral.net/sn12.3/en/bodhi
pitithefool wrote: Mon Mar 15, 2021 12:25 amBased on our emotions, we seek contact (sensory stimulus).
According to MN 9, it appears any "emotions" arising before contact are called "asava" ("fermentations").
From the origination of fermentation comes the origination of ignorance.... From the origination of ignorance comes the origination of fermentation... There are these three fermentations: the fermentation of sensuality, the fermentation of [past] becoming, the fermentation of ignorance.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
:alien:
pitithefool wrote: Mon Mar 15, 2021 12:25 amAlso, based on that sensory stimulus, there is feeling, which also conditions the formation of more emotions.
So you are saying craving, attachment, becoming, sorrow, lamentation, etc, are also "emotions"?
pitithefool wrote: Mon Mar 15, 2021 12:25 amThen we're back where we started. We either want to feel the emotion again, we want it to stop, or we ignore it. That then conditions how we act in the future, seeking out pleasure, avoiding pain, or ignoring neutral emotions (becoming). From there we engage in acts and take on identities that suit the factors of conditioning (birth)
Ok... sounds reasonable. Thanissaro fluked a good book with his "Shape of Suffering". Hard to believe he finally got something right after his disasters Not-Self Strategy and Paradox of Becoming.
pitithefool wrote: Mon Mar 15, 2021 12:25 amI want to apologize, as far as I'm aware, there isn't really a pali correlate for the word emotion, so I'm treating it here like feeling and like sankhara.
Feeling does not appear to mean "emotion". Also, 'sankhara' may not mean emotion.
pitithefool wrote: Mon Mar 15, 2021 12:25 amIt's also important to note that... craving is also listed as an emotion in english.
Sound reasonable.
pitithefool wrote: Mon Mar 15, 2021 12:25 amIs this making sense? I hope so. if not let me know.
:thumbsup:
pitithefool wrote: Mon Mar 15, 2021 12:25 amSankhara in Pali is pretty difficult to translate but most broadly in means "conditioned phenomena". In this context, a translation might be "volition"
Volition is cetana. Cetana is mentioned at nama-rupa. Refer to Thanissaro's Shape of Suffering, pages 3 to 7.
pitithefool wrote: Mon Mar 15, 2021 12:25 ambut I don't think that quite captures the range of the term.
Cetana is like making a decision. I doubt it is emotion but, instead, driven to act by emotion.
pitithefool wrote: Mon Mar 15, 2021 12:25 am"Fabrication" is pretty good because it does cover things like thoughts, emotions, volitions and complex mental objects.
The Pali says sankhara is kayasankhara, vacisankhara and cittasankhara. Kayasankhara means "in & out breathing". Vacisankhara means "thought". 'Cittasankhara" means vedana & sanna. These don't sound like emotions. Emotions sound like they are greed, lust, hatred, anger, confusion, fear, selfishness, love, sorrow, grief, etc.
pitithefool wrote: Mon Mar 15, 2021 12:25 amThe meaning of sankhara is pretty dependent on the context too and it should be noted that the entirety of its meaning does in fact apply in DO.
Big call when you can't even post what the Pali is according to sutta. Regardless, good effort. :thumbsup: :smile:
Tayome, bhikkhave, saṅkhārā—

kāyasaṅkhāro, vacīsaṅkhāro, cittasaṅkhāro.

Ime vuccanti, bhikkhave, saṅkhārā.

https://suttacentral.net/sn12.2/pli/ms#13
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JohnK
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Re: Where do emotions fit into Paticca-Samuppada?

Post by JohnK »

SarathW wrote: Sun Mar 14, 2021 11:22 pm
JohnK wrote: Sat Mar 13, 2021 6:02 pm
Bhikkhu Pesala wrote: Sat Mar 13, 2021 10:29 am Emotions are feelings arising dependent on contact with mental objects...
Interesting.
Rather than emotions being a form of feeling/vedana, it seems that emotions can be a reaction to vedana.
That is, many emotions seem to be shadings of the craving (or aversion) which can follow from vedana.
Is this also a reasonable way to see it? Thank you.
:anjali:
I think Vedana is the result (say reaction) to contact (passa)
Yes, certainly.
Those who grasp at perceptions & views wander the internet creating friction. [based on Sn4:9,v.847]
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pitithefool
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Re: Where do emotions fit into Paticca-Samuppada?

Post by pitithefool »

DooDoot wrote: Mon Mar 15, 2021 12:54 am
SN 12.3 calls dependent origination the "wrong path". https://suttacentral.net/sn12.3/en/bodhi
Indeed. The entire path can be discerned from the study of dependent origination, but as long as DO is happening, suffering is still happening.
Feeling does not appear to mean "emotion". Also, 'sankhara' may not mean emotion.
No not quite vedana. I'll give my reason for choosing to translate as sankhara:

Sankhara, as you posted out, is generally defined as:
Bodily sankhara - In and out breathing
Verbal Sankhara - Vitakka-vicara or dircted thoughts and evaluation
Mental sankhara - Feeling and perception

Out of these, the english word emotion doesn't really fit snugly with any one of these but may be said to be a combination of thoughts, in and out breathing and feelings and perceptions, which I wish to avoid explaining for time's sake.

Emotion would fit pretty well within the nama-rupa but I feel its inclusion in sankhara makes its active role in conditioning significantly more apparent.
Sound reasonable.
Thank you. This is a little bit of a difficult topic since there is no pali that I'm aware of for the word "emotion", let alone specifically included in DO. I'm of the opinion that trying to make it fit anywahere in here will involve some compromise, so I'll definitely admit, whatever answer I give is not going to be perfect or complete.

Volition is cetana. Cetana is mentioned at nama-rupa. Refer to Thanissaro's
Yeah I kindof want to avoid using the term volition specifically. That concept has little overlap with "emotion" so it leaves quite a bit do be desired.

I think my first comment was more referring to the active role that emotions play in conditioning further consciousness, contact, feelings, etc., but I feel that maybe it should be further emphasized that they are both a conditioning agent and the result of conditioning. Emotions then would also be at home later down the chain in DO, but that position seems to emphasize that passive role rather tan the active role. It does however match quite closely with MN18, as something like papanca, but I couldn't in right mind call all emotions papanca.
Cetana is like making a decision. I doubt it is emotion but, instead, driven to act by emotion.

The Pali says sankhara is kayasankhara, vacisankhara and cittasankhara. Kayasankhara means "in & out breathing". Vacisankhara means "thought". 'Cittasankhara" means vedana & sanna. These don't sound like emotions. Emotions sound like they are greed, lust, hatred, anger, confusion, fear, selfishness, love, sorrow, grief, etc.
Yes yes, definitely. Sorry I just want to reiterate, I think for the purpose of showing the active causal role of emotion, it makes sense (to me anyways) to include it under the umbrella of sankhara. In this case too, you could probably argue that emotions are the names of specific arrangements or patterns of thoughts, feelings, perceptions and even in-and-out breathing. If we were wanting to explain how emotions arise as the result of conditioning, it would likely be better to place them further down the chain of DO, after contact, like in "becoming". That I would imagine we might have to jump through more hoops to fit and it still might not have the impact of showing active causation like it would including it under the term "sankhara", being immediately conditioned by either ignorance (avijja) or knowledge (vijja). All those factors together seemed like a fair compromise and I could relate it to the classic right view dichotomy of wholesome and unwholesome. This seemed like a good opportunity to give a concise, hard hitting depiction of the whole path while still answering the question (I tried anyway lol)
Big call when you can't even post what the Pali is according to sutta. Regardless, good effort. :thumbsup: :smile:

Tayome, bhikkhave, saṅkhārā—

kāyasaṅkhāro, vacīsaṅkhāro, cittasaṅkhāro.

Ime vuccanti, bhikkhave, saṅkhārā.

https://suttacentral.net/sn12.2/pli/ms#13
I think I still might be able to argue that "emotion" fits under the umbrella of sankhara, even if we restrict it to the defined bodily, verbal, and mental found in the DO context. It might take a little gymnastics, but it my mind, emotion seems like particular arrangements or emergent patterns of these. Further, emotion's role as a causal or conditioning agent is important enough to merit placing it quite high on the chain of DO, given that it can probably fit in a couple places, namely Nama-rupa, Salayatana (as a mental object), becoming and even birth if you really stretch it.

Perhaps placing it under nama-rupa would better? Then we could easily explain that it conditions salayatana and contact, and that it's conditioned by sankhara (which in this case could be left alone as far as making a concept fit). This way, both the active and passive roles of emotion can be seen and we don't have to explain away how emotions are sankhara as defined in the canon.

Let me know what you think! I feel like there's probably many ways of fitting emotion into the chain of DO, but I feel like the important features they should get across are that a) emotions are both an active causal agent as well as a result of conditioning, b) that they can be skillful or unskillful and either hurt or help along the path, and c) by abandoning ignorance, they cease altogether. I think if those points are met, and the explanation doesn't blatantly conflict with the canon, then it's probably OK.



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Ontheway
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Re: Where do emotions fit into Paticca-Samuppada?

Post by Ontheway »

The word "emotion" was defined as

UK: a strong feeling such as love or anger, or strong feelings in general.

US: strong feeling, such as of love, anger, fear, etc.
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictio ... sh/emotion

In this case, "emotion" here is Saṅkhāra.

Vedanā can be understood at least in two methods of explanation: Suttanta method and Abhidhamma method.

Suttanta method is: Vedanā are pleasant, unpleasant, and neither unpleasant nor pleasant.

Abhidhamma method is: pleasant, unpleasant, joy, grief, neutral.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

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Re: Where do emotions fit into Paticca-Samuppada?

Post by Jack19990101 »

Since emotion is not a straightforward match to a dhamma term, but common sensely -
Emotion can be the ignorance & sankhara link - i.e. depression, mood swings with no reason, wake up on the wrong side of bed, etc.
It also can be clinging - anger, carnal love obsession, execiment, jealousy, thrill etc.

There are some wholesome emotions out side dependent origination too - the four brahma vihara dwellings, although i am not sure it is exactly can be called emotions. Those are not dependent arising by avijja. They are nature reflection of a purified mind.
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Re: Where do emotions fit into Paticca-Samuppada?

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Greetings superzach,
superzach wrote: Sat Mar 13, 2021 10:05 am I was wondering where emotions fit into the sequence of Paticca-Samuppada/dependent origination. Has this been discussed before? I would naively expect that emotions are a form of mental fabrication, and perhaps arise after contact and feeling.
There is no reason to believe that emotions apply only to one nidana. For example, as well as being listed in its own right, vedana is explicitly listed as a constituent of nama.
SN 12.2 wrote: "And what is name-&-form? Feeling, perception, intention, contact, & attention: This is called name. The four great elements, and the form dependent on the four great elements: This is called form. This name & this form are called name-&-form.
Further, check out the characteristics of all dhammas, and see the relationship and function of desire and feeling.
AN 10.53 wrote:"Monks, if those who have gone forth in other sects ask you, 'In what are all phenomena rooted? What is their coming into play? What is their origination? What is their meeting place? What is their presiding state? What is their governing principle? What is their surpassing state? What is their heartwood? Where do they gain a footing? What is their final end?': On being asked this by those who have gone forth in other sects, how would you answer?"

"For us, lord, the teachings have the Blessed One as their root, their guide, & their arbitrator. It would be good if the Blessed One himself would explicate the meaning of this statement. Having heard it from the Blessed One, the monks will remember it."

"In that case, monks, listen & pay close attention. I will speak."

"As you say, lord," the monks responded.

The Blessed One said, "Monks, if those who have gone forth in other sects ask you, 'In what are all phenomena rooted? What is their coming into play? What is their origination? What is their meeting place? What is their presiding state? What is their governing principle? What is their surpassing state? What is their heartwood? Where do they gain a footing? What is their final end?': On being asked this by those who have gone forth in other sects, this is how you should answer them:

"'All phenomena are rooted in desire.

"'All phenomena come into play through attention.

"'All phenomena have contact as their origination.

"'All phenomena have feeling as their meeting place.

"'All phenomena have concentration as their presiding state.

"'All phenomena have mindfulness as their governing principle.

"'All phenomena have discernment as their surpassing state.

"'All phenomena have release as their heartwood.

"'All phenomena gain their footing in the deathless.

"'All phenomena have Unbinding as their final end.'

"On being asked this by those who have gone forth in other sects, this is how you should answer."
Metta,
Paul. :)
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Re: Where do emotions fit into Paticca-Samuppada?

Post by asahi »

superzach wrote: Sat Mar 13, 2021 10:05 am I was wondering where emotions fit into the sequence of Paticca-Samuppada/dependent origination. Has this been discussed before? I would naively expect that emotions are a form of mental fabrication, and perhaps arise after contact and feeling.
So you are not equating emotion to feeling ie vedana . If by emotion you refers to joy , sorrow , love or mood etc , then possibly it included in the sankhara in the five aggregates . To fit into DO formula , It could be in between after feeling link and on tanha link .

:reading:
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Re: Where do emotions fit into Paticca-Samuppada?

Post by mjaviem »

Emotions are not feeling in the buddhist context. I think it could be like this:

Existence emotions: Happiness, sadness.
Clinging emotions: Disgust, amusement, enjoyment, surprise, pride, contempt, embarassment.
Craving emotions: Excitement, anger, fear.
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
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