Where do emotions fit into Paticca-Samuppada?

Exploring the Dhamma, as understood from the perspective of the ancient Pali commentaries.
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superzach
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Where do emotions fit into Paticca-Samuppada?

Post by superzach »

I was wondering where emotions fit into the sequence of Paticca-Samuppada/dependent origination. Has this been discussed before? I would naively expect that emotions are a form of mental fabrication, and perhaps arise after contact and feeling.
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Re: Where do emotions fit into Paticca-Samuppada?

Post by SarathW »

The way I understand feeling (Vedana) is the emotions.
Passa paccaya vedana (As a result of contact feeling arises).
Last edited by SarathW on Sat Mar 13, 2021 10:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: Where do emotions fit into Paticca-Samuppada?

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

Emotions are feelings arising dependent on contact with mental objects, for example happy or sad feelings arise dependent on recollecting happy or sad events. See the Mahāsi Sayādaw's discourse on the Mālukyaputta Sutta

Failure to Meditate on Mind Objects While Knowing
“Tassa vaḍḍhanti vedanā, anekā dhamma­sambhavā;
Abhijjhā ca vihesā ca, cittam­assūpahaññati.
Evamācinato dukkhaṃ, ārā nibbāna vuccati.”
“A multitude of passions such as covetousness and vexation, springing from ideas, torments one who takes a firm hold of it, with the result that his mind surely becomes impaired. Therefore, nibbāna remains remote from one who would rather carry the burden of suffering than practise meditation.”

Meditating on Mind Objects Brings Nibbāna Near
The preceding stanzas show the darker side of life for the meditator. There is a brighter side, though, which is given in the following stanza.
“Na so rajjati dhammesu, dhammaṃ ñatvā patissato;
Virattacitto vedeti, tañca nājjhossa tiṭṭhati.”
“Passion remains undeveloped in him who recollects with mindfulness the idea he has known. Thus freed from lust, he refuses to imbibe it.”
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superzach
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Re: Where do emotions fit into Paticca-Samuppada?

Post by superzach »

OK, thank you both. So I understood this to mean that when one speaks of feelings, emotions are part of that.
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Re: Where do emotions fit into Paticca-Samuppada?

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Bhikkhu Pesala wrote: Sat Mar 13, 2021 10:29 am Emotions are feelings arising dependent on contact with mental objects, for example happy or sad feelings arise dependent on recollecting happy or sad events. See the Mahāsi Sayādaw's discourse on the Mālukyaputta Sutta

Failure to Meditate on Mind Objects While Knowing
“Tassa vaḍḍhanti vedanā, anekā dhamma­sambhavā;
Abhijjhā ca vihesā ca, cittam­assūpahaññati.
Evamācinato dukkhaṃ, ārā nibbāna vuccati.”
“A multitude of passions such as covetousness and vexation, springing from ideas, torments one who takes a firm hold of it, with the result that his mind surely becomes impaired. Therefore, nibbāna remains remote from one who would rather carry the burden of suffering than practise meditation.”

Meditating on Mind Objects Brings Nibbāna Near
The preceding stanzas show the darker side of life for the meditator. There is a brighter side, though, which is given in the following stanza.
“Na so rajjati dhammesu, dhammaṃ ñatvā patissato;
Virattacitto vedeti, tañca nājjhossa tiṭṭhati.”
“Passion remains undeveloped in him who recollects with mindfulness the idea he has known. Thus freed from lust, he refuses to imbibe it.”
so awareness of arising of thoughts of bad or good is near to nibbana?
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Re: Where do emotions fit into Paticca-Samuppada?

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

confusedlayman wrote: Sat Mar 13, 2021 11:56 amSo awareness of arising of thoughts of bad or good is near to nibbana?
Only if awareness is constant, sustained, and uninterrupted.
Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta wrote:“Again, monks, how does a monk dwell contemplating thoughts in thoughts? Here, monks, when a thought with lust is present he knows, ‘A lustful thought is present.’ When a thought free from lust is present he knows, ‘A thought free from lust is present.’ When a thought with anger is present he knows, ‘A thought with anger is present.’ When a thought free from anger is present he knows, ‘A thought free from anger is present.’ When a deluded thought is present he knows, ‘A deluded thought is present.’ When an undeluded thought is present he knows, ‘An undeluded thought is present.’ When a lazy (contracted) mind is present he knows, ‘A lazy mind is present.’ When a distracted (restless) mind is present he knows, ‘A distracted mind is present.’ When a lofty mind is present he knows, ‘A lofty mind is present.’ When a non-lofty mind is present he knows, ‘A non-lofty mind is present.’ When an inferior mind is present he knows, ‘An inferior mind is present.’ When a superior mind is present he knows, ‘A superior mind is present.’ When a composed mind is present he knows, ‘A composed mind is present.’ When an uncomposed mind is present he knows, ‘An uncomposed mind is present.’ When a liberated mind is present he knows, ‘A liberated mind is present.’ When an unliberated mind is present he knows, ‘An unliberated mind is present.’
In brief, whatever thoughts arise during meditation should be known as they really are. Mindfulness should be maintained to avoid getting carried away by thoughts, whether positive or negative. Joyful, happy, and serene states of mind will develop if the meditator continues to practice diligently. Nevertheless, if progress seems slow, the meditator becomes pessimistic or depressed and is reluctant to continue. If both positive and negative thoughts are noted whenever they occur, the mind will remain equanimous and progress will be steady.
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Re: Where do emotions fit into Paticca-Samuppada?

Post by confusedlayman »

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote: Sat Mar 13, 2021 2:54 pm
confusedlayman wrote: Sat Mar 13, 2021 11:56 amSo awareness of arising of thoughts of bad or good is near to nibbana?
Only if awareness is constant, sustained, and uninterrupted.
Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta wrote:“Again, monks, how does a monk dwell contemplating thoughts in thoughts? Here, monks, when a thought with lust is present he knows, ‘A lustful thought is present.’ When a thought free from lust is present he knows, ‘A thought free from lust is present.’ When a thought with anger is present he knows, ‘A thought with anger is present.’ When a thought free from anger is present he knows, ‘A thought free from anger is present.’ When a deluded thought is present he knows, ‘A deluded thought is present.’ When an undeluded thought is present he knows, ‘An undeluded thought is present.’ When a lazy (contracted) mind is present he knows, ‘A lazy mind is present.’ When a distracted (restless) mind is present he knows, ‘A distracted mind is present.’ When a lofty mind is present he knows, ‘A lofty mind is present.’ When a non-lofty mind is present he knows, ‘A non-lofty mind is present.’ When an inferior mind is present he knows, ‘An inferior mind is present.’ When a superior mind is present he knows, ‘A superior mind is present.’ When a composed mind is present he knows, ‘A composed mind is present.’ When an uncomposed mind is present he knows, ‘An uncomposed mind is present.’ When a liberated mind is present he knows, ‘A liberated mind is present.’ When an unliberated mind is present he knows, ‘An unliberated mind is present.’
In brief, whatever thoughts arise during meditation should be known as they really are. Mindfulness should be maintained to avoid getting carried away by thoughts, whether positive or negative. Joyful, happy, and serene states of mind will develop if the meditator continues to practice diligently. Nevertheless, if progress seems slow, the meditator becomes pessimistic or depressed and is reluctant to continue. If both positive and negative thoughts are noted whenever they occur, the mind will remain equanimous and progress will be steady.
Thanks bhante
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Re: Where do emotions fit into Paticca-Samuppada?

Post by JohnK »

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote: Sat Mar 13, 2021 10:29 am Emotions are feelings arising dependent on contact with mental objects...
Interesting.
Rather than emotions being a form of feeling/vedana, it seems that emotions can be a reaction to vedana.
That is, many emotions seem to be shadings of the craving (or aversion) which can follow from vedana.
Is this also a reasonable way to see it? Thank you.
:anjali:
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Re: Where do emotions fit into Paticca-Samuppada?

Post by SteRo »

superzach wrote: Sat Mar 13, 2021 10:05 am I was wondering where emotions fit into the sequence of Paticca-Samuppada/dependent origination. Has this been discussed before? I would naively expect that emotions are a form of mental fabrication, and perhaps arise after contact and feeling.
From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
See? "sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair" and "entire mass of stress & suffering" this is what the world would understand as "emotions" ... it's ridicuous but actually "emotions" is a non-dhammic term
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Re: Where do emotions fit into Paticca-Samuppada?

Post by pegembara »

JohnK wrote: Sat Mar 13, 2021 6:02 pm
Bhikkhu Pesala wrote: Sat Mar 13, 2021 10:29 am Emotions are feelings arising dependent on contact with mental objects...
Interesting.
Rather than emotions being a form of feeling/vedana, it seems that emotions can be a reaction to vedana.
That is, many emotions seem to be shadings of the craving (or aversion) which can follow from vedana.
Is this also a reasonable way to see it? Thank you.
:anjali:
I also think that emotion comes after feeling(pleasant, unpleasant, or neutral).A reaction to or movement in response to a feeling. Without the reaction, feelings will remain as feelings. The arahant will have no emotions.
a conscious mental reaction (such as anger or fear) subjectively experienced as strong feeling usually directed toward a specific object and typically accompanied by physiological and behavioral changes in the body
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/emotion
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Re: Where do emotions fit into Paticca-Samuppada?

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superzach wrote: Sat Mar 13, 2021 10:05 am I was wondering where emotions fit into the sequence of Paticca-Samuppada/dependent origination. Has this been discussed before? I would naively expect that emotions are a form of mental fabrication, and perhaps arise after contact and feeling.

There are wholesome emotions and unwholesome emotions.

I would recommend reading MN 19, MN 9 and especially MN 61.

Emotions can be classed as mental actions. I'll put the relevant quote from the sutta here:

"Whenever you want to do a mental action, you should reflect on it: 'This mental action I want to do — would it lead to self-affliction, to the affliction of others, or to both? Would it be an unskillful mental action, with painful consequences, painful results?' If, on reflection, you know that it would lead to self-affliction, to the affliction of others, or to both; it would be an unskillful mental action with painful consequences, painful results, then any mental action of that sort is absolutely unfit for you to do. But if on reflection you know that it would not cause affliction... it would be a skillful mental action with pleasant consequences, pleasant results, then any mental action of that sort is fit for you to do." MN 61

Right resolve, right speech, right livelihood and right effort have everything to do with emotions as well. We are trying to develop the mind so it does not hurt yourself or others. Key words: good-will, generosity, compassion, kindness. All of these are wholesome and to be developed.

Brahmaviharas: lovingkindness, compassion, sympathetic joy, and equanimity are all very wholesome and lead to non-affliction.
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Re: Where do emotions fit into Paticca-Samuppada?

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pitithefool wrote: Sun Mar 14, 2021 8:50 pm There are wholesome emotions and unwholesome emotions. I would recommend reading MN 19, MN 9 and especially MN 61.
Where do emotions fit into Paticca-Samuppada? :shrug:
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Re: Where do emotions fit into Paticca-Samuppada?

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DooDoot wrote: Sun Mar 14, 2021 10:58 pm
Where do emotions fit into Paticca-Samuppada? :shrug:
Paticca-samuppada, my old friend

Emotions are sankhara. They can be rooted in ignorance or they can be rooted in knowledge.

Trying to fit this in the framework of DO, Sankhara rooted in ignorance are akusala and will result in suffering. Skillful sankhara will form the path and lead to the destruction of suffering. Our emotions, being sankhara, should thus be grouped into skillful and unskillful.

When ignorance is completely gone, the need to create sankhara at all, including for the path itself, will subside and the whole chain of DO unravels from its root.

Positive emotions like goodwill are part of the path because they lead us away from suffering. More refined emotions take us beyonf the need for emotion. Good will is wholesome. Inspiration is wholesome. More wholesome still is dispassion toward form, feeling, perception, sankhara and consciousness. When one fabricates such a fabrication, one goes beyond the entire process of fabrication.
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Re: Where do emotions fit into Paticca-Samuppada?

Post by SarathW »

JohnK wrote: Sat Mar 13, 2021 6:02 pm
Bhikkhu Pesala wrote: Sat Mar 13, 2021 10:29 am Emotions are feelings arising dependent on contact with mental objects...
Interesting.
Rather than emotions being a form of feeling/vedana, it seems that emotions can be a reaction to vedana.
That is, many emotions seem to be shadings of the craving (or aversion) which can follow from vedana.
Is this also a reasonable way to see it? Thank you.
:anjali:
I think Vedana is the result (say reaction) to contact (passa)
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Re: Where do emotions fit into Paticca-Samuppada?

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pitithefool wrote: Sun Mar 14, 2021 11:19 pm Emotions are sankhara.
If emotions were "sankhara", why were 12 conditions taught instead of merely 2 conditions? Surely, emotions are already dukkha. :shrug:

Btw, how do the Pali suttas define "sankhara"? What is the Pali here? Thanks :thanks:
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