Kasiṇa practice

[Ceisiwr]

Is it possible to develop the earth kasiṇa via its aspect of hardness? For example, the sense of hardness when sitting in meditation rather than via a maṇḍala?

[pitithefool]

Is it possible to develop the earth kasiṇa via its aspect of hardness? For example, the sense of hardness when sitting in meditation rather than via a maṇḍala?

I need to take a break from this website lol.

It depends on how you're being taught it. One teacher may say specifically that's what the Earth Kasina is, another may say to paint an earth colored circle on a piece of canvas, and that's a kasina.

If you were to ask me, they're both right, but unfortunately I wouldn't be able to substantiate these claims other than what I know about four elements meditation: They are about developing quality more than anything. Someone may meditate on the air element to achieve qualities related to wind, meditate on the water element to achieve malleability. Etc.

I'll say what I have before, I don't think this things necessarily have to be set in stone. Most pertinent sutta here would be MN 62.

The Buddha advised on elements meditation in a number of places but what I think those are more similar to how perception is practiced or other ways like those listed in the Girimananda sutta: perceiving something as a particular quality all around with the object of systematically developing dispassion.

Now to turn Earth into an object that you can really play with, you need to introduce the quality of space to it. From what I can gather, a kasina is the mental representation of a meditation subject, particularly bound in a certain spatial arrangement. In this case, once it gets compartmentalized by the mind as an "object" in the sense of it having a more or less definable form, it can become the basis of developing jhana. Since the apparent size of a mental object can be changed, all that is left to do is to expand the object out to infinite space and drop it.

Note, where this leaves metta as an object?

Again, I don't think the suttas are to be read like an technical manual or a piece of programming. The definitions of jhana I think are more a roadmap than turn-by-turn directions. They are memory aids more than they are manuals.

[Ceisiwr]

I need to take a break from this website lol.

I think you’ve made quite the positive contribution so far.

Again, I don't think the suttas are to be read like an technical manual or a piece of programming. The definitions of jhana I think are more a roadmap than turn-by-turn directions. They are memory aids more than they are manuals.

I think you are somewhat right. Given its subjective nature I can imagine some variation, within certain parameters. I asked because I use physical sensations for the air kasiṇa but I’m interested in developing the earth kasiṇa as of late. It seems to me the physical sensation can be just as apt as using a coloured disc, and then I thought “How would a blind person practice it?”. Still, I’m interested in hearing opinions to the contrary. The commentaries, which I generally follow for meditation, all base kasiṇa on something visual.

Regarding another question you asked me on another thread, I’ll reply tomorrow or later in the week.

[pitithefool]

I think you’ve made quite the positive contribution so far.

Thank you that means a lot. For real though I need to take a break. My work is super slow on weekends and this is rather engaging.

It seems to me the physical sensation can be just as apt as using a coloured disc, and then I thought “How would a blind person practice it?”. Still, I’m interested in hearing opinions to the contrary. The commentaries, which I generally follow for meditation, all base kasiṇa on something visual.

That's the thing. I believe anapanasati is (initally at least) meditation from a physical sensation. It ends up being a mental object, but I think if we are trying to develop absorption, one of the most important factors is defining the mental impression of the object as clearly as possible. The sensation of the breath in various place in the body, or indeed the whole body, can act as objects to develop jhana from. I figure, if we're teaching earth kasina to a blind person, it should be no different, the meditator just needs to be able to define the mental impression clearly enough to distinguish object from non-object and for its quality to be pleasant and calming.

[[james]]

Is it possible to develop the earth kasiṇa via its aspect of hardness? For example, the sense of hardness when sitting in meditation rather than via a maṇḍala?

I am curious about this as well.
What is “hardness” but an interpretation or appreciation of the effect of the earth’s gravity on the body?
Can the perception of gravity be one’s object of meditation?

[pitithefool]

I am curious about this as well.
What is “hardness” but an interpretation or appreciation of the effect of the earth’s gravity on the body?
Can the perception of gravity be one’s object of meditation?

I think so, yeah.

If we follow the roadmap of the jhana formulas, developing the concentration with and without vitakk-vicara, with and without piti-sukha, we'd be necessarily using an object that's bound and defined in form. I'd be interested in this because it still sounds like you'd be using the "earth kasina" but the definition of terms here is more dependent on what your experience of the object is like.

Besides, I've said this before and I'll say it again, calling it one thing or another doesn't matter nearly as much as if it can be used skillfully to develop "noble right concentration" which MN 117 defines as:

“What, bhikkhus, is noble right concentration with its supports and its requisites, that is, right view, right intention, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, and right mindfulness? Unification of mind equipped with these seven factors is called noble right concentration with its supports and its requisites."

[SarathW]

Is it possible to develop the earth kasiṇa via its aspect of hardness? For example, the sense of hardness when sitting in meditation rather than via a maṇḍala?

Yes, but it is the Vipassana meditation as the hardness of the body moves around.
The use of Mandala amounts to Samatha practice as it is an external object and fixed.

[Ceisiwr]

Is it possible to develop the earth kasiṇa via its aspect of hardness? For example, the sense of hardness when sitting in meditation rather than via a maṇḍala?

Yes, but it is the Vipassana meditation as the hardness of the body moves around.
The use of Mandala amounts to Samatha practice as it is an external object and fixed.

Good point.

[pitithefool]

Is it possible to develop the earth kasiṇa via its aspect of hardness? For example, the sense of hardness when sitting in meditation rather than via a maṇḍala?

Yes, but it is the Vipassana meditation as the hardness of the body moves around.
The use of Mandala amounts to Samatha practice as it is an external object and fixed.

Good point.

Indeed it is!