A Manual of the Excellent Man (bodhisatta path)

A forum for members who wish to develop a deeper understanding of the Pali Canon and associated Commentaries, which for discussion purposes are both treated as authoritative.
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retrofuturist
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Re: A Manual of the Excellent Man

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Will,

I think it means that the mindstate of an arahant experiences nibbana, not that the arahant him/herself is nibbana. Thus, it's an object/subject relationship.

That qualitative experience of nibbana is identical for an arahant and a Buddha.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"Why now do you assume 'a being'? Mara, have you grasped a view?" (SN 5.10)

"Overcome the liar by truth." (Dhp 223)
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Re: A Manual of the Excellent Man

Post by Dhammanando »

Hi Will,
Will wrote:
Dhammanando wrote:But this line of yours - "The last two refer to the citta that cognizes Nibbāna, but not to Nibbāna itself" is a puzzle to me. I thought knowing Nibbana was nibbana? "Nibbana itself" sounds like an object that is apart from thought or awareness??
If the citta that cognizes Nibbāna were Nibbāna itself, then Nibbāna would be just another dependently arisen phenomenon. As it is, Nibbāna is conceived in classical Theravāda as the unconditioned object (ārammaṇa) of a conditioned citta. The effect of this cognition, at the moment of path consciousness, is the cutting off of the defilements particular to that level (e.g., the first three fetters in the case of stream entry).

Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
Anabhirati kho, āvuso, imasmiṃ dhammavinaye dukkhā, abhirati sukhā.

“To not delight in this dhammavinaya, friend, is painful; to delight in it is bliss.”
(Sukhasutta, AN 10:66)
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Re: A Manual of the Excellent Man

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

Will wrote:First puzzlement - is it a typo on pages 2-3 re: Sila, where it says that it manifests only as verbal purity? It does not mention bodily purity, whereas the first part of the comments does mention bodily purity. The online edition has only "verbal purity" too.

Also, is the Sayadaw translating or paraphrasing the Pali verses in italics?
I cannot currently access the original disks given to me by James Ross (no floppy drive on this PC), so I cannot confirm if it is an omission or not. It is clearly not a typo.

My take on this is that since bodily purity means abstention from Killing, Stealing, Adultery, Wrong Speech, and Taking Intoxicants, then it cannot be manifested at all — it is the not-doing of any evil deed. However, moral purity can be manifested verbally as the verbal intimation, “I undertake the precept to abstain from killing living beings,” and so forth, or as speaking the truth when asked about some matter, or speaking words of unity in reply to divisive speech, etc.

I once had a copy of the Burmese text, but my knowledge of Burmese is limited. If I can find that again, perhaps I can verify whether a word or phrase has been omitted in translation.
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Re: A Manual of the Excellent Man

Post by Nicholas Weeks »

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:
Will wrote:First puzzlement - is it a typo on pages 2-3 re: Sila, where it says that it manifests only as verbal purity? It does not mention bodily purity, whereas the first part of the comments does mention bodily purity. The online edition has only "verbal purity" too.

Also, is the Sayadaw translating or paraphrasing the Pali verses in italics?
I cannot currently access the original disks given to me by James Ross (no floppy drive on this PC), so I cannot confirm if it is an omission or not. It is clearly not a typo.

My take on this is that since bodily purity means abstention from Killing, Stealing, Adultery, Wrong Speech, and Taking Intoxicants, then it cannot be manifested at all — it is the not-doing of any evil deed. However, moral purity can be manifested verbally as the verbal intimation, “I undertake the precept to abstain from killing living beings,” and so forth, or as speaking the truth when asked about some matter, or speaking words of unity in reply to divisive speech, etc.

I once had a copy of the Burmese text, but my knowledge of Burmese is limited. If I can find that again, perhaps I can verify whether a word or phrase has been omitted in translation.
Thanks for visiting Bhante; hope you will stay around.
Dhamma is against the stream of common thought, deep, subtle, difficult, delicate, unseen by passion’s slaves cloaked in the murk of ignorance. Vipassī Buddha
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Re: A Manual of the Excellent Man

Post by Nicholas Weeks »

From page 47 of the book:
Since volition is the key factor behind any action, if one can discard attachment to the nonexistent self in respect of volition, personality view becomes extinct. If personality view in volition can be eradicated from one’s psyche, the other mental factors can never again be associated with the deluded self. That is why the Buddha highlighted volition in describing the aggregate of mental formations.
Dhamma is against the stream of common thought, deep, subtle, difficult, delicate, unseen by passion’s slaves cloaked in the murk of ignorance. Vipassī Buddha
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Re: A Manual of the Excellent Man

Post by Nicholas Weeks »

So the mind-bases of a Buddha, a Solitary Buddha, a Chief Disciple, a Senior Disciple, or an Ordinary Disciple vary widely in their range. So too, for beings born with three wholesome roots, with two wholesome roots, or without wholesome roots...
Maybe I missed the definition, but what are these wholesome roots?
Dhamma is against the stream of common thought, deep, subtle, difficult, delicate, unseen by passion’s slaves cloaked in the murk of ignorance. Vipassī Buddha
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Re: A Manual of the Excellent Man

Post by cooran »

Hello Will,

This may be of assistance:

mūla 'roots', also called hetu
(q.v.; s. paccaya, 1), are those conditions which through their presence determine the actual moral quality of a volitional state (cetanā), and the consciousness and mental factors associated therewith, in other words, the quality of karma.
There are 6 such roots, 3 karmically wholesome and 3 unwholesome roots, viz.,: greed, hate, delusion (lobha, dosa, moha), and greedlessness, hatelessness, undeludedness (alobha, adosa, amoha).
In A.III.68 it is said that greed arises through unwise reflection on an attractive object, hate through unwise reflection on a repulsive object. Thus, greed (lobha or rāga) comprises all degrees of 'attractedness' towards an object from the faintest trace of a longing thought up to grossest egoism, whilst hatred (dosa) comprises all degrees of 'repulsion' from the faintest trace of ill-humor up to the highest pitch of hate and wrath.
The 3 wholesome (kusala) roots, greedlessness, etc., though expressed in negative terms, nevertheless possess a distinctly positive character, just as is also often the case with negative terms in other languages, for example, the negative term 'immorality', which has a decidedly positive character.
Thus, greedlessness (alobha) is a name for unselfishness, liberality, etc., hatelessness (adosa) for kindness or goodwill (mettā), undeludedness (amoha) for wisdom (paññā).
"The perception of impurity is to be developed in order to overcome greed (lust); loving-kindness in order to overcome hate; wisdom in order to overcome delusion" (A.VI.107).
"Killing, stealing, unlawful sexual intercourse, lying, tale-bearing, harsh language, frivolous talk, covetousness, ill-will and wrong views (s. kammapatha), these things are due either to greed, or hate, or delusion" (A.X.174).
"Enraptured with lust (greed), enraged with hate, blinded by delusion, overwhelmed, with mind ensnared, man aims at his own ruin, at others' ruin, at the ruin of both, and he experiences mental pain and grief. And he follows evil ways in deeds, words and thought... And he really knows neither his own welfare, nor the welfare of others, nor the welfare of both. These things make him blind and ignorant, hinder his knowledge, are painful, and do not lead him to peace."
The presence or absence of the 3 unwholesome roots forms part of the mind contemplation in the Satipatthāna Sutta (M.10). They are also used for the classification of unwholesome consciousness (s. Tab. I).
See The Roots of Good and Evil, by Nyanaponika Thera (WHEEL 251/253).
http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/g_m/muula.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The Roots of Good and Evil, by Nyanaponika Thera (WHEEL 251/253
http://www.bps.lk/wheels_library/wheels ... 51_253.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

metta
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Re: A Manual of the Excellent Man

Post by Nicholas Weeks »

Just bumping up this old thread where study of this wonderful bodhisattva teaching by Ledi Sayadaw was occurring.
Dhamma is against the stream of common thought, deep, subtle, difficult, delicate, unseen by passion’s slaves cloaked in the murk of ignorance. Vipassī Buddha
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Re: A Manual of the Excellent Man (bodhisatta path)

Post by Nicholas Weeks »

On page 29 of the book is this definition:
The material base of consciousness or the mind is called the heart-base. It is the source from which kind thoughts or unkind thoughts flow.
Is the "heart-base" just our heart pump of flesh? If so, why is "base" tacked on to the translation?

This is the link that has the passage: http://www.aimwell.org/Books/Ledi/Uttam ... gates.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: A Manual of the Excellent Man (bodhisatta path)

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Will,
Will wrote: Is the "heart-base" just our heart pump of flesh? If so, why is "base" tacked on to the translation?
No. An alternative translation is "mind base".

http://what-buddha-said.net/library/Bud ... 4%81yatana" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: A Manual of the Excellent Man (bodhisatta path)

Post by Anicca »

From Abhidhamma in daily life - Nina Van Gorkom
hadaya-vatthu: heart-base, place of origin of the cittas other than the sense-cognitions.
Metta
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Re: A Manual of the Excellent Man (bodhisatta path)

Post by bodom »

According to Visuddhimagga 8.111, inside the heart there is a small cavity where the mind element and mind-consciousness element occur.

:anjali:
This is our foundation: to have sati, recollection, and sampajañña, self-awareness, whether standing, walking, sitting, or reclining. Whatever arises, just leave it be, don’t cling to it. Whether it’s like or dislike, happiness or suffering, doubt or certainty... Don’t try to label everything, just know it. See that all the things that arise in the mind are simply sensations. They are transient. They arise, exist and cease. That’s all there is to them, they have no self or being, they are neither ‘us’ nor ‘them’. None of them are worthy of clinging to.

- Ajahn Chah
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Re: A Manual of the Excellent Man (bodhisatta path)

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Bodom, Will,
bodom wrote:According to Visuddhimagga 8.111, inside the heart there is a small cavity where the mind element and mind-consciousness element occur.

:anjali:
Yes, perhaps I should have said a little more than:
mikenz66 wrote:Hi Will,
Will wrote: Is the "heart-base" just our heart pump of flesh? If so, why is "base" tacked on to the translation?
No. An alternative translation is "mind base".

http://what-buddha-said.net/library/Bud ... 4%81yatana" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Mike
The heart/mind base is, as Anicca points out, some sort of support for mental processes. According to ancient Indian physiology this was thought to be located in the heart.
As Bodom points out in Vism VIII.111 it said that:
...inside [the heart] there is hollow the size of a punnaga seed's bed where half a pasata measure of blood is kept, with which as their support the mind element and mind-consciousness element occur...
With current knowledge we might be more inclined to say that the brain contains some of the basic hardware that makes mind-consciousness possible.

In either case, whether you prefer ancient Indian physiology or modern, "heart/mind base" doesn't mean the whole of the physical heart.

Mike
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Re: A Manual of the Excellent Man (bodhisatta path)

Post by Nicholas Weeks »

Thanks for the responses re: heart-base. I found this in a work by Piya Tan:
The Visuddhimagga clearly places the mind (mano), specifically in the heart, in the form (rupa)
aggregate: ‘The heart-basis has the characteristic of being the [material] support for the mind-element and
for the mind-consciousness element’ (hetu,mano,viññaCa,dhatunaB,nissaya,lakkhaCaB hadaya,vatthu,
Vism 14.60/447). The characteristics of the mind are then shown, with its function (rasa) being to “subserve”
(adharaCa) and the “manifestation” (paccupaDDhana) being “the carrying of them” (ubbahana).
Apparently, the Buddha knows of this cardiac theory, but nowhere in the Suttas do we find him referring
to it. Even in the Vibhaga, in the definition of the mind-element and mind-consciousness-element,
the word hadaya is used in a purely mental, and not physical, sense (Vism 88 f).
So it is not crystal clear to me yet, but I will continue to ponder & research.
Dhamma is against the stream of common thought, deep, subtle, difficult, delicate, unseen by passion’s slaves cloaked in the murk of ignorance. Vipassī Buddha
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Re: A Manual of the Excellent Man (bodhisatta path)

Post by Nicholas Weeks »

Mental nutriment means contact, volition, and consciousness.

“The past kamma that accompanies one throughout the cycle of rebirth is comparable to a field, rebirth-consciousness is like the seed-grain, the craving that accompanies kamma is like the fertility of the soil — Kammam khettam viññānam bījam tanhā sineho.”

In the above quotation, kamma is the mental nutriment of volition, rebirth-consciousness is the nutriment of consciousness, which provides the seed for a new existence at rebirth, leading to a new material aggregate, i.e. the body.
So the body corresponds to "contact"?

Also, rebirth-consciousness is a mystery to me. Any light from someone?
Dhamma is against the stream of common thought, deep, subtle, difficult, delicate, unseen by passion’s slaves cloaked in the murk of ignorance. Vipassī Buddha
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