Why Samma Samadhi and the contemprary first 4jhanas are same?

Exploring the Dhamma, as understood from the perspective of the ancient Pali commentaries.
canadianbuddhist
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Why Samma Samadhi and the contemprary first 4jhanas are same?

Post by canadianbuddhist »

Why Samma Samadhi is given only the attainment of first 4 jhanas? The reason is that the first 4 jhanas are anyways practiced by other ascetics. It seems to me that the Noble Eight Path's last path factor is nothing special but the same attainment of the same 4 jhanas practiced by other ascetics at the time.

Pls explain

Thank you
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Why Samma Samadhi and the contemprary first 4jhanas are same?

Post by Ceisiwr »

canadianbuddhist wrote: Fri May 21, 2021 8:40 pm Why Samma Samadhi is given only the attainment of first 4 jhanas? The reason is that the first 4 jhanas are anyways practiced by other ascetics. It seems to me that the Noble Eight Path's last path factor is nothing special but the same attainment of the same 4 jhanas practiced by other ascetics at the time.

Pls explain

Thank you
My personal opinion is that the difference between the Jhana of the Buddha and the Jhana of the other ascetics was in how it was viewed. In other words, Right View is what makes Jhana Right Samadhi. Regarding the commentaries, I’ll have to have a dig around.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
SarathW
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Re: Why Samma Samadhi and the contemprary first 4jhanas are same?

Post by SarathW »

canadianbuddhist wrote: Fri May 21, 2021 8:40 pm Why Samma Samadhi is given only the attainment of first 4 jhanas? The reason is that the first 4 jhanas are anyways practiced by other ascetics. It seems to me that the Noble Eight Path's last path factor is nothing special but the same attainment of the same 4 jhanas practiced by other ascetics at the time.

Pls explain

Thank you
Can you give me a Sutta reference to support "Samma Samadhi is given only the attainment of first 4 jhanas"?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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mikenz66
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Re: Why Samma Samadhi and the contemprary first 4jhanas are same?

Post by mikenz66 »

SarathW wrote: Fri May 21, 2021 10:52 pm
canadianbuddhist wrote: Fri May 21, 2021 8:40 pm Why Samma Samadhi is given only the attainment of first 4 jhanas? The reason is that the first 4 jhanas are anyways practiced by other ascetics. It seems to me that the Noble Eight Path's last path factor is nothing special but the same attainment of the same 4 jhanas practiced by other ascetics at the time.

Pls explain

Thank you
Can you give me a Sutta reference to support "Samma Samadhi is given only the attainment of first 4 jhanas"?
And what is right immersion?
Katamo ca, bhikkhave, sammāsamādhi? ...

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SarathW
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Re: Why Samma Samadhi and the contemprary first 4jhanas are same?

Post by SarathW »

Thanks, Mike. So his question is why only Rupavacara Jhana is mentioned in Samma Samadhi, without including the Arupavacara Samadhi?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Pondera
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Re: Why Samma Samadhi and the contemprary first 4jhanas are same?

Post by Pondera »

I think there’s some hidden meaning only revealed by personal experience of the teachings.

Samma samadhi is defined as the four rupa jhanas.

However, there are more than a few suttas that explain how the transcendence of space, etc. All the way to Nirodha Samapatti “reveal” the release with no counter part or further release.

And yet, at his death, the Buddha settles on the fourth jhana in order to pass away. And this is DESPITE having reached Nirodha Samapatti. He descends from that attainment to finally settle on the fourth jhana.

I don’t know why in particular. But this may be a feature of the third knowledge (and the destruction of the cankers may be intrinsic to the fourth jhana - ie. for some reason).

:shrug:
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Re: Why Samma Samadhi and the contemprary first 4jhanas are same?

Post by DooDoot »

canadianbuddhist wrote: Fri May 21, 2021 8:40 pm Why Samma Samadhi is given only the attainment of first 4 jhanas? The reason is that the first 4 jhanas are anyways practiced by other ascetics. It seems to me that the Noble Eight Path's last path factor is nothing special but the same attainment of the same 4 jhanas practiced by other ascetics at the time.
other ascetics don't practise "samma"...
SarathW wrote: Fri May 21, 2021 11:06 pm Rupavacara Arupavacara
:shrug:
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Re: Why Samma Samadhi and the contemprary first 4jhanas are same?

Post by SarathW »

My guess is that it is not possible for people in the Arupavacara realm to learn and comprehend Dhamma.
For instance, Buddha could not teach Dhamma to his teachers because they were passed away from the human realm and reborn in Arupavacara realms.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Pondera
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Re: Why Samma Samadhi and the contemprary first 4jhanas are same?

Post by Pondera »

SarathW wrote: Sat May 22, 2021 1:13 am My guess is that it is not possible for people in the Arupavacara realm to learn and comprehend Dhamma.
For instance, Buddha could not teach Dhamma to his teachers because they were passed away from the human realm and reborn in Arupavacara realms.
Silent Buddha’s???

They crop up all the time.

Thus there is understanding.
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
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Re: Why Samma Samadhi and the contemprary first 4jhanas are same?

Post by Srilankaputra »

As I understand,

This is first and foremost a Lokuttara Magga. Those ascetics and brahmins who has well subdued sensual desire and have mastered higher mental abidings are still worldly. Because they delight in their attainments. Wherever they delight is an attachment to this world.

Blessed Ones instruction to Venerable Posala, who had mastered the attainment of Ākiñcaññāyatana.
Viññāṇaṭṭhitiyo sabbā,
Abhijānaṁ tathāgato;
Tiṭṭhantamenaṁ jānāti,
Vimuttaṁ tapparāyaṇaṁ.

The Tathāgata knows thoroughly
all supports of consciousness:
knows this one as stuck,
that one freed, or bound for the beyond.(Laurence Khantipalo)

Ākiñcaññasambhavaṁ ñatvā,
Nandī saṁyojanaṁ iti;
Evametaṁ abhiññāya,
Tato tattha vipassati;
Etaṁ ñāṇaṁ tathaṁ tassa,
Brāhmaṇassa vusīmato”ti.


Having known the origin of nothingness, and that enjoyment is called a fetter,
knowing deeply that it is so, and then having insight into this:
this is real knowedge for him, for the brahmin who is accomplished.(Bhikkhu Ānandajoti)
https://suttacentral.net/snp5.15/pli/ms

Wish you all success in all your endeavours. Goodbye!
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Re: Why Samma Samadhi and the contemprary first 4jhanas are same?

Post by SarathW »

Hi SL
Why can't apply your logic to Rupavacara as well?
Are you saying that you can experience Rupavacara only by following Noble Eightfold Path?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Re: Why Samma Samadhi and the contemprary first 4jhanas are same?

Post by Srilankaputra »

SarathW wrote: Sat May 22, 2021 3:01 am Hi SL
Why can't apply your logic to Rupavacara as well?
Are you saying that you can experience Rupavacara only by following Noble Eightfold Path?
Hi,

By higher mental abidings I meant both rupavacara and arupavacara Samapatti.

Wish you all success in all your endeavours. Goodbye!
waryoffolly
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Re: Why Samma Samadhi and the contemprary first 4jhanas are same?

Post by waryoffolly »

Samma samadhi is also frequently defined as:

'Unification of mind with these seven factors as prerequisites is called noble right immersion ‘with its vital conditions’ and ‘with its prerequisites’.
Yā kho, bho, imehi sattahaṅgehi cittassa ekaggatā parikkhatā, ayaṃ vuccati, bho, ariyo sammāsamādhi saupaniso itipi saparikkhāro itipi

{DN 18, MN 117, SN 45.28, AN 7.45}

I believe these occurrences outnumber the four jhana definition of samma samadhi.

Citassa ekaggata (unification of mind) in this definition may or may not be referring to four jhanas depending on your views. If you take it to refer to the four jhana's then you are left with the conclusion that the four jhana's can be done in all postures due to AN 4.12. Please see my catalogue here: viewtopic.php?f=23&t=40272 for more references to ekaggata.

So if you wish to avoid the conclusion that jhana is done in all postures than you must allow for samma samadhi to include non-jhanic level samadhi. Or if you are ok with the idea of jhana in all 4 postures than you can take this definition as a reference to the four jhana's.
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Re: Why Samma Samadhi and the contemprary first 4jhanas are same?

Post by waryoffolly »

waryoffolly wrote: Sun May 23, 2021 2:07 am Samma samadhi is also frequently defined as:

'Unification of mind with these seven factors as prerequisites is called noble right immersion ‘with its vital conditions’ and ‘with its prerequisites’.
Yā kho, bho, imehi sattahaṅgehi cittassa ekaggatā parikkhatā, ayaṃ vuccati, bho, ariyo sammāsamādhi saupaniso itipi saparikkhāro itipi

{DN 18, MN 117, SN 45.28, AN 7.45}

I believe these occurrences outnumber the four jhana definition of samma samadhi.

Citassa ekaggata (unification of mind) in this definition may or may not be referring to four jhanas depending on your views. If you take it to refer to the four jhana's then you are left with the conclusion that the four jhana's can be done in all postures due to AN 4.12. Please see my catalogue here: viewtopic.php?f=23&t=40272 for more references to ekaggata.

So if you wish to avoid the conclusion that jhana is done in all postures than you must allow for samma samadhi to include non-jhanic level samadhi. Or if you are ok with the idea of jhana in all 4 postures than you can take this definition as a reference to the four jhana's.
This being said the four jhana formula are mentioned more than any other stock samadhi formula I have encountered. Here's the usages of the second jhana alone:

{DN 1, DN 2, DN 3, DN 9, DN 10, DN 17, DN 22, DN 33, MN 4, MN 8, MN 10, MN 13, MN 19. MN 25, MN 26, MN 27, MN 30, MN 31, MN 36, MN 38, MN 39, MN 45, MN 51, MN 60, MN 65, MN 94, MN 100, MN 101, MN 108, MN 111, MN 112, MN 113, MN 119, MN 122, MN 125, MN 138, MN 139, MN 141, SN 16.9, SN 21.1. SN 28.2, SN 36.19, SN 36.31, SN 40.2, SN 45.8, SN 48.10, SN 48.40, SN 53.1-12, SN 53.13-22, SN 54.8, AN 2.11-21, AN 3.59, AN 3.64, AN 3.75, AN 4.123, AN 4.163, AN 5.14, AN 7.53, AN 8.11, AN 8.30, AN 9.35, AN 11.16}

Probably it's safe to say that the four jhana's are indeed meant as samma samadhi given how frequently they occur! If you agree, then that makes the unification of mind with seven factors snippet in my above post mean the four jhana's (and this has further implications that I will avoid stating outright for now :spy:).
SarathW
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Re: Why Samma Samadhi and the contemprary first 4jhanas are same?

Post by SarathW »

waryoffolly wrote: Sun May 23, 2021 2:07 am Samma samadhi is also frequently defined as:

'Unification of mind with these seven factors as prerequisites is called noble right immersion ‘with its vital conditions’ and ‘with its prerequisites’.
Yā kho, bho, imehi sattahaṅgehi cittassa ekaggatā parikkhatā, ayaṃ vuccati, bho, ariyo sammāsamādhi saupaniso itipi saparikkhāro itipi

{DN 18, MN 117, SN 45.28, AN 7.45}

I believe these occurrences outnumber the four jhana definition of samma samadhi.

Citassa ekaggata (unification of mind) in this definition may or may not be referring to four jhanas depending on your views. If you take it to refer to the four jhana's then you are left with the conclusion that the four jhana's can be done in all postures due to AN 4.12. Please see my catalogue here: viewtopic.php?f=23&t=40272 for more references to ekaggata.

So if you wish to avoid the conclusion that jhana is done in all postures than you must allow for samma samadhi to include non-jhanic level samadhi. Or if you are ok with the idea of jhana in all 4 postures than you can take this definition as a reference to the four jhana's.
:goodpost:
I did not notice the vital statement as you pointed out in DN18.
Seven Prerequisites of Immersion
“What do the good gods of the Thirty-Three think about how much the Buddha has clearly described the seven prerequisites of immersion for the development and fulfillment of right immersion? What seven? Right view, right thought, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, and right mindfulness. Unification of mind with these seven factors as prerequisites is called noble right immersion ‘with its vital conditions’ and ‘with its prerequisites’.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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