Learner/Sekha Arhats

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Coëmgenu
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Learner/Sekha Arhats

Post by Coëmgenu »

SarathW recently posted, "Once you become a Sotapanna, do you still have to learn Dhamma?"

In the Paravādin Sarvāstivādin Abhidharma system, there is a class of Arhantaḥ ("Arahants") who must use/learn something called the "vajropamasamādhi" to destroy the remainder of their afflictions. Is there any analogue in Theravāda Buddhism to an Arhat who must destroy the remainder of his afflictions despite being an Arhat?
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Re: Learner/Sekha Arhats

Post by sphairos »

Nevermind
Last edited by sphairos on Fri Jun 18, 2021 7:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Learner/Sekha Arhats

Post by Coëmgenu »

sphairos wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 6:35 pmSarvāstivāda Abhidharma was compiled in a good Sanskrit, so the incorrect Buddhist Hybrid Sanskrit form arhant is out of place there.
Irrelevant comment. Also, very uninformed.
sphairos wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 6:35 pmAlso "paravāda" is a term I think I've never met in the Pāli scriptures or in Sanskrit Abhidharmic ones, it's some late Mahāyāna term.
Incorrect comment.
sphairos wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 6:35 pmAll arahants are perfect in the Theravāda tradition, they don't have anything to accomplish anymore. Sarvāstivāda arhats were retrogressible, except those who achieved vajropamasamādhi. In Theravāda terms they weren't arahants.
Potentially correct. I don't trust you to dispense accurate information, so I'll not take you at your word.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Re: Learner/Sekha Arhats

Post by sphairos »

Nevermind
Last edited by sphairos on Fri Jun 18, 2021 7:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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How true are your ways?
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Learner/Sekha Arhats

Post by Coëmgenu »

sphairos wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 7:17 pmOk, I'll say it directly: you made a laughable mistake. You don't know the declension of the word "arhat" in Sanskrit. It's not "arhantaḥ", it's "arhataḥ".
I don't think it's even vaguely true that I made a laughable mistake. The rest of your post I didn't read and won't bother to.

I make absolutely no claims to be educated in Sanskrit or any Indian language. That is your stupid mischaracterization of me.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Re: Learner/Sekha Arhats

Post by cappuccino »

Coëmgenu wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 4:45 pm Is there any analogue in Theravāda Buddhism to an Arhat who must destroy the remainder of his afflictions despite being an Arhat?
I would think not
Dhammavamsa
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Re: Learner/Sekha Arhats

Post by Dhammavamsa »

Coëmgenu wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 4:45 pm SarathW recently posted, "Once you become a Sotapanna, do you still have to learn Dhamma?"

In the Paravādin Sarvāstivādin Abhidharma system, there is a class of Arhantaḥ ("Arahants") who must use/learn something called the "vajropamasamādhi" to destroy the remainder of their afflictions. Is there any analogue in Theravāda Buddhism to an Arhat who must destroy the remainder of his afflictions despite being an Arhat?
In Theravada (Vibhajjavada), Buddha taught that Arahants are liberated from cycle of birth and death, pure, and Enlightened. And there is a stock stanza from Pali canon described the status of Arahants: "Birth is exhausted, the holy life has been lived out, what can be done is done, of this there is no more beyond."

In fact, I once read a sutta, a Deva criticizes a certain group of monks being lazy and not striving hard enough (without knowing that those monks are already Arahants), but the Buddha corrects the Deva, saying only Sekha (Sotapanna, Sakadagami, Anagami) need to strive while Arahants no longer need to do so. I forgot the sutta name, I will look for it later, I think it is in Samyutta if not mistaken.
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Re: Learner/Sekha Arhats

Post by Ceisiwr »

c
Coëmgenu wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 4:45 pm SarathW recently posted, "Once you become a Sotapanna, do you still have to learn Dhamma?"

In the Paravādin Sarvāstivādin Abhidharma system, there is a class of Arhantaḥ ("Arahants") who must use/learn something called the "vajropamasamādhi" to destroy the remainder of their afflictions. Is there any analogue in Theravāda Buddhism to an Arhat who must destroy the remainder of his afflictions despite being an Arhat?
Having no more fetters or defliments is what makes an Arahant in Theravāda. They are the same as the Buddha, except the Buddha discovered the path and awakened on this own (and taught others). I believe there are some special abilities Buddha's can do that Arahants can't, but this in no way means that the Arahant has any "afflictions" of mind.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Learner/Sekha Arhats

Post by Inedible »

It is a Mahayana thing that an Arhat still has work to do because there are remaining cognitive afflictions. Years ago I read a story about a Non-returner who was only moments from becoming an Arhat when a Bodhisattva broke his meditation. Naturally, he told the Bodhisattva that he had been right on the edge of attaining Nibbana and the Bodhisattva agreed and explained that was why he did it. They believe it is much harder for an Arhat to work a Bodhisattva path because it is too easy to forget how suffering feels and be able to generate compassion. The Non-returner somehow experiences just a moment of rage directed at the Bodhisattva in the story and somehow goes straight to Hell. On his way back up he becomes a Bodhisattva also and somehow this justifies everything.
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Re: Learner/Sekha Arhats

Post by Coëmgenu »

They get it from Sarvāstivādins and sources like that, along with whatever innovations they made to those.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Learner/Sekha Arhats

Post by Coëmgenu »

It's like Mahādeva's thesis in some accounts, but the Sarvāstivādins aren't Mahāsāṃghikas. Kathāvatthu probably has something in it related to this. I'll go looking.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Learner/Sekha Arhats

Post by Ceisiwr »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 5:23 am It's like Mahādeva's thesis in some accounts, but the Sarvāstivādins aren't Mahāsāṃghikas. Kathāvatthu probably has something in it related to this. I'll go looking.
The way Sujato and others have explained it is that Mahādeva's thesis isn’t quite what it seems. The Arahant still has ignorance, but this is worldly ignorance (where is Mexico? What time is it?) rather than spiritual. Not sure how right that is myself. If true then the original “split” started from a misunderstanding.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Learner/Sekha Arhats

Post by Coëmgenu »

Yes, I see looking at them now. I had been mistakenly thinking it was to do with retrogradability.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Re: Learner/Sekha Arhats

Post by EmptyShadow »

Inedible wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 5:05 am It is a Mahayana thing that an Arhat still has work to do because there are remaining cognitive afflictions. Years ago I read a story about a Non-returner who was only moments from becoming an Arhat when a Bodhisattva broke his meditation. Naturally, he told the Bodhisattva that he had been right on the edge of attaining Nibbana and the Bodhisattva agreed and explained that was why he did it. They believe it is much harder for an Arhat to work a Bodhisattva path because it is too easy to forget how suffering feels and be able to generate compassion. The Non-returner somehow experiences just a moment of rage directed at the Bodhisattva in the story and somehow goes straight to Hell. On his way back up he becomes a Bodhisattva also and somehow this justifies everything.
Some mahayana ideas are stright up disrespectful to the Buddha-Dhamma and complete lunacy.

Reminds me of the book " The Life of Milarepa" where heavy alcohoholism and killing of human beings are justified in the name of "greater good".:quote: It's like the authors of such stories lack basic understanding of morality and Buddhist principles.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Learner/Sekha Arhats

Post by Coëmgenu »

It's not "a Mahāyāna idea." It's a Sarvāstivādin idea, shared by numerous other early Buddhist schools too, that Mahāyānikas get into later for obvious reasons, likely because Mahāyāna came out of early Buddhist sects who believed likewise.

:juggling:

Also, please don't conflate Mahāyāna and Tantra. They are not the same thing. I understand that it is part of the Tāntrika identity to self-identify as Mahāyāna, but "self-identifying" doesn't make it so. I could "self-identify" as a "true Theravādin," but that wouldn't make me one.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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