ultimate meaning of emptiness..

[auto]

I wonder,

What is the ultimate meaning (paramattha) of emptiness [as it relates to] all
kinds of emptiness, which is the terminating of [temporal] occurrence in one
who is fully aware?

The temporal occurrence is hindrance.

(The seven hindrances and their antidotes)
Here, through renunciation one who is fully aware terminates the occurrence of impulsive sensual desire;
through nonaggression one who is fully aware terminates the occurrence of aggression;
through perception of light one who is fully aware terminates the occurrence of laziness/sleepiness;
through nondistraction one who is fully aware terminates the occurrence of agitation;
through understanding phenomena one who is fully aware terminates the occurrence of doubt;
through knowledge one who is fully aware terminates the occurrence of ignorance;
through gladness one who is fully aware terminates the occurrence of boredom.

The antidote what removes temporal occurrence is what removes the inclination(namarupa(sn12.39)) by consciousness unable to get established. By that there opens a dimension where the eye and perception of sights fades away(sn35.117).

empty of self = it can be gotten rid of by non-clinging.

What is emptiness both ways?
Internally the eye and externally visible form are both empty of a self or that
which belongs to a self or of what is permanent and everlasting and eternal
and not subject to change.

Supreme emptiness. Supreme i gather refers to the paramattha of emptiness.

What is supreme emptiness?
This Dhamma is supreme, this Dhamma is superior, this Dhamma is excellent:
the calming of all fabrications, the relinquishing of all substrata of becoming,
the exhaustion of craving, the fading away of greed, cessation, Nibbana. This is
supreme emptiness.

paramattha, the ultimate is what attha means,

PTS Pali-English dictionary The Pali Text Society's Pali-English dictionary

Attha，2 （nt．） [Vedic asta，of uncertain etym．] home，primarily as place of rest & shelter，but in P．phraseology abstracted from the “going home＂，i．e．setting of the sun，as disappearance，going out of existence，annihilation，extinction．Only in Acc．and as °- in foll phrases：atthaṅgacchati to disappear，to go out of existence，to vanish..

Looks like the paramattha idea is to terminate paññatti(apparent reality)?

[SarathW]

To me, Anatta is the ultimate meaning of emptiness.
According to Sunnata Sutta, the ultimate experience of emptiness is the Nirodha Samapatthi.
Even the Nibbana is empty of self.
All the points in OP are just explaining the same thing in a different way.

[Padipa]

I wonder,

What is the ultimate meaning (paramattha) of emptiness [as it relates to] all
kinds of emptiness, which is the terminating of [temporal] occurrence in one
who is fully aware?

The temporal occurrence is hindrance.

(The seven hindrances and their antidotes)
Here, through renunciation one who is fully aware terminates the occurrence of impulsive sensual desire;
through nonaggression one who is fully aware terminates the occurrence of aggression;
through perception of light one who is fully aware terminates the occurrence of laziness/sleepiness;
through nondistraction one who is fully aware terminates the occurrence of agitation;
through understanding phenomena one who is fully aware terminates the occurrence of doubt;
through knowledge one who is fully aware terminates the occurrence of ignorance;
through gladness one who is fully aware terminates the occurrence of boredom.

The antidote what removes temporal occurrence is what removes the inclination(namarupa(sn12.39)) by consciousness unable to get established. By that there opens a dimension where the eye and perception of sights fades away(sn35.117).

empty of self = it can be gotten rid of by non-clinging.

What is emptiness both ways?
Internally the eye and externally visible form are both empty of a self or that
which belongs to a self or of what is permanent and everlasting and eternal
and not subject to change.

Supreme emptiness. Supreme i gather refers to the paramattha of emptiness.

What is supreme emptiness?
This Dhamma is supreme, this Dhamma is superior, this Dhamma is excellent:
the calming of all fabrications, the relinquishing of all substrata of becoming,
the exhaustion of craving, the fading away of greed, cessation, Nibbana. This is
supreme emptiness.

paramattha, the ultimate is what attha means,

PTS Pali-English dictionary The Pali Text Society's Pali-English dictionary

Attha，2 （nt．） [Vedic asta，of uncertain etym．] home，primarily as place of rest & shelter，but in P．phraseology abstracted from the “going home＂，i．e．setting of the sun，as disappearance，going out of existence，annihilation，extinction．Only in Acc．and as °- in foll phrases：atthaṅgacchati to disappear，to go out of existence，to vanish..

Looks like the paramattha idea is to terminate paññatti(apparent reality)?

Buddhists provide many definitions for emptiness. One accepted definition is when perception reaches a high enough degree that sharp distinctions on essences of things begin to breakdown. In abridged form: emptiness is seeing that all things & all beings have mutual interdependence. Therefore, there are no real essences in a thing itself--the essences are creations (delusions) of the mind and its conditioning. jt

[pegembara]

To me, Anatta is the ultimate meaning of emptiness.
According to Sunnata Sutta, the ultimate experience of emptiness is the Nirodha Samapatthi.
Even the Nibbana is empty of self.
All the points in OP are just explaining the same thing in a different way.

Emptiness is not nothing but no thingness or empty of things ie. anatta or without self-nature of things.

All things are marked by emptiness-Sabbe dhamma anatta.

The two sorts of emptiness, the emptiness of the non-clinging mind and the emptiness of all things are related. Because all things do truly have the characteristic of being empty of a self, a permanent, independent entity to be grasped at or clung to, we are able to see the truth of emptiness. If in fact they weren't empty of self, then it would be impossible to see their emptiness. But as it is, on the contrary, although all things are empty we see everyone of them as not-empty. The mind that is enveloped by defilements and ignorance grasps at and clings to all of them as self, even a speck of dust. Even a tiny particle of dust is conceived to be an independent entity, a 'second person'. We label the second person, the various things that surround us, as being this and being that, and in every case see them as being permanent independent entities.
Therefore we must know absolutely correctly the meaning of the word 'empty' which to sum up, is to know that firstly it is the characteristic of all things and secondly it is the characteristic of the non-clinging mind. The first emptiness is an object of knowledge or realization. The second emptiness is the empty mind, the characteristic of the mind that is empty through realizing the truth of emptiness. Thus the mind seeing emptiness in all things disintegrates of itself, leaving only emptiness, everything as I have said from a speck of dust up to Nibbana. Material objects, people, animals, time and space, every sort of dhamma melt into emptiness through knowing the truth of this point. This is the meaning of the word empty.

The self is merely a condition that arises when there is grasping and clinging in the mind. We don't see it as empty, but see it as self, because that grasping and clinging with ignorance and defilement. There being ignorance or unknowing in the mind grasping arises by itself, it's not that we make a deliberate effort or consciously establish a self. When the mind contains avijja, it inevitably experiences all things as being independent entities, with no need for there to be any deliberate intention.

The truth discerning-awareness or knowledge of Dhamma which has not yet reached it's peak, can only extinguish some types of grasping, sometimes. Some people may be of the opinion that dust is not an independent entity but that a sparrow is. Others may see that trees and animals are not independent entities but take people to be so. In seeing people as independent entities or as selves, some will say that the body is not-self but the mind is. This is called incomplete extinction; some aspects are extinguished but others are left behind as self. One may reach the point of saying that the mind is not-self but that some good qualities of the mind, such as virtues are. Or one may believe that if these are not-self then that which is beyond time, the Nibbana-element is self. This sort of extinguishing always leaves a seed. Whenever we sweep out the whole lot, even the Nibbana-element as not-self that action is called true remainderless extinction of ego or self.


Ajahn Buddhadasa

[mjaviem]

...

... Some people may be of the opinion that dust is not an independent entity but that a sparrow is. Others may see that trees and animals are not independent entities but take people to be so. In seeing people as independent entities or as selves, some will say that the body is not-self but the mind is. This is called incomplete extinction; some aspects are extinguished but others are left behind as self. One may reach the point of saying that the mind is not-self but that some good qualities of the mind, such as virtues are. Or one may believe that if these are not-self then that which is beyond time, the Nibbana-element is self. This sort of extinguishing always leaves a seed. Whenever we sweep out the whole lot, even the Nibbana-element as not-self that action is called true remainderless extinction of ego or self.


Ajahn Buddhadasa

One day I will understand. I hope so.

[pegembara]

...

... Some people may be of the opinion that dust is not an independent entity but that a sparrow is. Others may see that trees and animals are not independent entities but take people to be so. In seeing people as independent entities or as selves, some will say that the body is not-self but the mind is. This is called incomplete extinction; some aspects are extinguished but others are left behind as self. One may reach the point of saying that the mind is not-self but that some good qualities of the mind, such as virtues are. Or one may believe that if these are not-self then that which is beyond time, the Nibbana-element is self. This sort of extinguishing always leaves a seed. Whenever we sweep out the whole lot, even the Nibbana-element as not-self that action is called true remainderless extinction of ego or self.


Ajahn Buddhadasa

One day I will understand. I hope so.

The atom is not an independent entity. What is it without protons, electrons, neutrons?
It is a contruct/sankhara.
All constructs are without self.

Why now do you assume 'a being'? [ASS-u-ME}
Mara, have you grasped a view?
This is a heap of sheer constructions:
Here no being is found.

Just as, with an assemblage of parts,
The word 'chariot' is used,
So, when the aggregates are present,
There's the convention 'a being.'

It's only suffering that comes to be,
Suffering that stands and falls away.
Nothing but suffering comes to be,
Nothing but suffering ceases.

"Now I wonder — knowing in what way, seeing in what way, does one without delay put an end to the effluents?"

"Or he doesn't assume form to be the self... but he may have a view such as this: 'This self is the same as the cosmos. This I will be after death, constant, lasting, eternal, not subject to change.' This eternalist view is a fabrication... Or... he may have a view such as this: 'I would not be, neither would there be what is mine. I will not be, neither will there be what is mine.' This annihilationist view is a fabrication... Or... he may be doubtful & uncertain, having come to no conclusion with regard to the true Dhamma. That doubt, uncertainty, & coming-to-no-conclusion is a fabrication.

"What is the cause, what is the origination, what is the birth, what is the coming-into-existence of that fabrication? To an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person, touched by what is felt born of contact with ignorance, craving arises. That fabrication is born of that. And that fabrication is inconstant, fabricated, dependently co-arisen. That craving... That feeling... That contact... That ignorance is inconstant, fabricated, dependently co-arisen. It is by knowing & seeing in this way that one without delay puts an end to the effluents."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

[Pondera]

To simplify - let’s look out at the night sky. We see (among the stars) vast expanses of darkness.

So, what IS darkness? It is invisible. It has no mass. It has no colour.

In an ordinary experience we encounter “nothingness”. We look out at the expanse of space and the divisions between objects and notice a certain “lack of being”.

Pushed farther, that same lack of being looses colour - but gains perception - because we see “black”. No one would argue that “black” is not (at least) a “shade” of colour.

In short. That darkness is nothingness. When a meditator enters that nothingness he experiences the darkness. He experiences the lack of being.

The farther you delve into nothingness the more the colour of “black” emerges. Nothingness is invisible. But in great quantities - it is dark and black.

But, emptiness need not be of any colour or texture. Emptiness is a pure lack of everything in the context of any given environment.

Emptiness takes on the shape and form of the environment. But it “excludes” all of the objects in that environment.

That is how I see it.

[mjaviem]

I can read about emptiness and not self but I still can't stop seeing things as something. Even a particle of dust I see it as being a particle and not just an assemblage of components. I can theoretically say it is made of molecules (and that molecules are an assemblage of atoms, and so on down to whatever one wants). The problem is not the scale, they problem is that I regard things as something instead of seeing them as empty. I'm sure I'm not the only one but I wanted to say that this is difficult to see.

[SarathW]

I can read about emptiness and not self but I still can't stop seeing things as something. Even a particle of dust I see it as being a particle and not just an assemblage of components. I can theoretically say it is made of molecules (and that molecules are an assemblage of atoms, and so on down to whatever one wants). The problem is not the scale, they problem is that I regard things as something instead of seeing them as empty. I'm sure I'm not the only one but I wanted to say that this is difficult to see.

If you look at my other question in regard to nothingness and the emptiness, you will notice that emptiness does not mean there is nothing but we recognise that things are dependently originated.
I think emptiness is about knowing, that "I have this, but I do not have this" sort of thing.
Finally you come to the conclusion that in ultimate sense what is left is the thought of "I" so you let it go that as well.
Please read Sunnata Sutta.

[pegembara]

I can read about emptiness and not self but I still can't stop seeing things as something. Even a particle of dust I see it as being a particle and not just an assemblage of components. I can theoretically say it is made of molecules (and that molecules are an assemblage of atoms, and so on down to whatever one wants). The problem is not the scale, they problem is that I regard things as something instead of seeing them as empty. I'm sure I'm not the only one but I wanted to say that this is difficult to see.

The mind constructs and is capable also of deconstruction.

The methodical practice of the Thirty-two Parts of the Body Meditation can help one penetrate and understand the true nature of the body. It can help one to see impermanence and comprehend that the body is made of four primary elements:

earth (solidity)
air (motion)
fire (temperature)
water (liquidity)

https://32parts.com/

[sunnat]

emptiness can be an experience. In experience is understanding. The experience may turn out to be very different from pre experience intellectual understanding and the description one may then make of the emptiness experience evokes, in those with pre experience, ideas of what emptiness is that again is different from the experienced emptiness
so
the correct answer can be that emptiness, and nothingness, are 'to be experienced' and thus consider the way to have that experience, which fundamentally means practice meditation, satpatthana, atapi sampajano satima, etc.

[confusedlayman]

I can read about emptiness and not self but I still can't stop seeing things as something. Even a particle of dust I see it as being a particle and not just an assemblage of components. I can theoretically say it is made of molecules (and that molecules are an assemblage of atoms, and so on down to whatever one wants). The problem is not the scale, they problem is that I regard things as something instead of seeing them as empty. I'm sure I'm not the only one but I wanted to say that this is difficult to see.

U cant see components unless u see in microscope.. its not about seeing its about knowing so u wont have desire

[Padipa]

To me, Anatta is the ultimate meaning of emptiness.
According to Sunnata Sutta, the ultimate experience of emptiness is the Nirodha Samapatthi.
Even the Nibbana is empty of self.
All the points in OP are just explaining the same thing in a different way.

Realizing the self has no real essence (anatta) is emptiness; but, there is more. All things & all beings are devoid of essence. The degree to which one sees essence equals the degree to which one misunderstands emptiness: one's delusion is directly proportionate to one's clinging to essences.

Mutual interdependence is a more succinct way to describe it: everything affects, & is affected by, everything else. It' just that, evolution, in order to compensate our finite being, within infinity, has evolved the brain, (algorithmically), to ensure we reach its goal: the goal of reproduction.

So, I would say, the ultimate meaning of emptiness is, one's realization of it, carries one to the far shore i.e., Nibbana

[Ceisiwr]

All things & all beings are devoid of essence. The degree to which one sees essence equals the degree to which one misunderstands emptiness: one's delusion is directly proportionate to one's clinging to essences.

What do you mean by “essence”?

Mutual interdependence is a more succinct way to describe it: everything affects, & is affected by, everything else.

Whilst popular with Mahayana and other schools of thought, it’s not something Theravada teaches.

[Coëmgenu]

What do you mean by “essence”?

My guess is some version of salakkhaṇa or sabhāva.