Abhidhamma: word of Buddha?

Exploring the Dhamma, as understood from the perspective of the ancient Pali commentaries.
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robertk
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Re: Abhidhamma: word of Buddha?

Post by robertk »

DooDoot wrote: Sat Sep 04, 2021 6:54 am
Gwi wrote: Sat Sep 04, 2021 6:44 am Ofc. 1.000%

Nobody cant teach Buddha's religion well
"without quoting Abhidhammå"
The above appears to suggest the Buddha was an imperfect teacher; that extra teachings were required to make up for the Buddha's inadequacies or failings. :roll:
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The Abhidhamma and Classical Theravada sub-forums are specialized venues for the discussion of the Abhidhamma and the classical Mahavihara understanding of the Dhamma. Within these forums the Pali Tipitaka and its commentaries are for discussion purposes treated as authoritative
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Gwi
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Re: Abhidhamma: word of Buddha?

Post by Gwi »

Abhidhammå more talking bout mental.

Abhiddhammå like as college lessons.

Abhidhammå n suttå is same,
But Abhidhammå more specific.

Suttå = using wordly words
Abhidhammå = absolute

Ex:
Water = worldly word
H20 = absolute

This 2 is same, but "water" more
Easy to understand for many people.

If u want to know bout WATER,
U You should learn more about water (specific lesson).

If u want ro know more bout Physics,
You need to be a scientist or study at a university.




Btw, have u read Abhidhammå?
Just 1 book? If no, how can u describe it?
Bahagia Tidak Harus Selalu Bersama

Dhammapadå 370
"Tinggalkanlah 5 (belantara) dan patahkan 5 (belenggu rendah),
Serta kembangkan 5 potensi (4 iddhipādā + 1 ussoḷhi).
Bhikkhu yang telah menaklukkan 5 kungkungan (belenggu tinggi),
Lebih layak disebut 'orang yang telah mengarungi air baih (saṃsārå)'."
Ontheway
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Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2021 3:35 pm

Re: Abhidhamma: word of Buddha?

Post by Ontheway »

Gwi wrote: Sat Sep 04, 2021 7:47 am Abhidhammå more talking bout mental.

Abhiddhammå like as college lessons.

Abhidhammå n suttå is same,
But Abhidhammå more specific.

Suttå = using wordly words
Abhidhammå = absolute

Ex:
Water = worldly word
H20 = absolute

This 2 is same, but "water" more
Easy to understand for many people.

If u want to know bout WATER,
U You should learn more about water (specific lesson).

If u want ro know more bout Physics,
You need to be a scientist or study at a university.




Btw, have u read Abhidhammå?
Just 1 book? If no, how can u describe it?
I know that there is an Indonesian Bhikkhu called Ashin Kheminda. He was a energetic, friendly, wise monk, and also knowledgeable in Pali Tipitaka canon. I myself not really understand Indonesian but I find his Dhamma talk topics are really educative and good for inspiration.

It was due to him, I am interested in Patthana.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
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Gwi
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Re: Abhidhamma: word of Buddha?

Post by Gwi »

Nice, Ontheway :twothumbsup:

I recommend everyone to read:
"Abhidhammatthasanggahå" (9 volumes)

Just read volume 1, will be enlightened :anjali:
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Aloka
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Re: Abhidhamma: word of Buddha?

Post by Aloka »

Gwi wrote: Sat Sep 04, 2021 8:39 am

Just read volume 1, will be enlightened :anjali:
Is this a claim to your own personal enlightenment, Gwi?

.:anjali:

.
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Sam Vara
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Re: Abhidhamma: word of Buddha?

Post by Sam Vara »

Aloka wrote: Sat Sep 04, 2021 1:53 pm
Gwi wrote: Sat Sep 04, 2021 8:39 am

Just read volume 1, will be enlightened :anjali:
Is this a claim to your own personal enlightenment, Gwi?

.:anjali:

.
I was wondering what I would do with volumes 2-9. :thinking:
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Gwi
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Re: Abhidhamma: word of Buddha?

Post by Gwi »

Aloka wrote: Sat Sep 04, 2021 1:53 pm
Gwi wrote: Sat Sep 04, 2021 8:39 am

Just read volume 1, will be enlightened :anjali:
Is this a claim to your own personal enlightenment, Gwi?

.:anjali:

.


I mean u guys will be "understand" Abhidhammå
With that book. I call, that book is "Cūḷābhidhammå"
:twothumbsup:
Bahagia Tidak Harus Selalu Bersama

Dhammapadå 370
"Tinggalkanlah 5 (belantara) dan patahkan 5 (belenggu rendah),
Serta kembangkan 5 potensi (4 iddhipādā + 1 ussoḷhi).
Bhikkhu yang telah menaklukkan 5 kungkungan (belenggu tinggi),
Lebih layak disebut 'orang yang telah mengarungi air baih (saṃsārå)'."
Ontheway
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Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2021 3:35 pm

Re: Abhidhamma: word of Buddha?

Post by Ontheway »

Gwi wrote: Sat Sep 04, 2021 8:39 am Nice, Ontheway :twothumbsup:

I recommend everyone to read:
"Abhidhammatthasanggahå" (9 volumes)

Just read volume 1, will be enlightened :anjali:
:namaste:
Abhidhamattha Sangaha, to me, just served as a introduction to the Abhidhamma Pitaka. It wasn't really have a big impact on me as compared to Visuddhimagga. I have read the chapters on Citta (89 types), Cetasika (52 types) and Rupa (4 main elements & 24 derived materiality). It certainly helped me understand the Suttanta more.

Maybe it's a personal experience. For me, Enlightenment comes only by Sila, Samadhi, and Panna. I don't think reading a Suttanta or Abhidhamattha text can do us any favour if we don't fulfill Sila and Samadhi. Which may take lifetimes to perfect them.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
zan
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Re: Abhidhamma: word of Buddha?

Post by zan »

robertk wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 6:58 am I saw some debate about this on a different thread:

The orthodox Theravada position is that Abhidhamma- even the Katthavathu -is the word of the Buddha:

The atthasalini (Commentary on the Dhammasangani ,trns THe Expositor p.8) by Buddhaghosa discusses suttas that are part of the canon that are not spoken directly by the Buddha:
Bhikkhus, learned is Mahăkaccãna, profoundly wise is Mahăkaccãna. II you had asked me the same question, I would have ariswered exactly as he has done.' Thus since the time when the Teacher gave his approval, the whole Suttanta became the word o1 the Buddha. And it is the same with the Suttas expounded by Ananda and others.
'thus in teaching the seven books, when he came to the Kathãvatthu the Buddha laid down the table of contents in the way mentioned above. In doing ao he foresaw that two hundred and eighteen years after his death, Tisaa, Moggali’ø son, seated in the midst of one thousand Bhikkhus, would elaborate the Kathavathu as is stated above. And 'Tissa Mogali son, expounded the book not by his own knowledge but according to the table of contents laid down, as well as by the method given, by the 'teacher. hence the entire book became the word of the Buddha. Thus the Abhidhamma consists of seven books inclusive of the Kathavathu.
also:
The textual order of the .Abhidhamma originated with Sariputta ; the numerical series in the break Book was also determined by him. In this way the Elder, without spoiling the unique doctrine, laid down the numerical series in order
*to make it easy to learn, remember, study and teach the Law. Such being the case, was the Elder the very first to understand the Abhidhamma ? Nay, it was the Supreme Buddha who first understood the Abhidhamma. For he, seated on the throne under the Wisdom Tree, penetrated if and became the Buddha
This is interesting. I also would like to point out that the matikas are generally agreed upon as being the forerunners of the Abhidhamma and they are mentioned in the suttas. Thus, we may assume a large part of Abhidhamma was around during the Buddha's time and approved of by him.
Assume all of my words on dhamma could be incorrect. Seek an arahant for truth.


"If we base ourselves on the Pali Nikayas, then we should be compelled to conclude that Buddhism is realistic. There is no explicit denial anywhere of the external world. Nor is there any positive evidence to show that the world is mind-made or simply a projection of subjective thoughts. That Buddhism recognizes the extra-mental existence of matter and the external world is clearly suggested by the texts. Throughout the discourses it is the language of realism that one encounters.
-Y. Karunadasa
zan
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Re: Abhidhamma: word of Buddha?

Post by zan »

Mātikā
feminine

a water course Vism.554 (˚âtikkamaka); Mhvs.35, Mhvs.96; Mhvs.37, Mhvs.50; Snp-a.500 (= sobbha); Dhp-a.ii.141 (its purpose: “ito c’ ito ca udakaṁ haritvā attano sassa-kammaṁ sampādenti”); Vv-a.301
tabulation, register, tabulated summary, condensed contents, esp. of philosophical parts of the Canonical books in the Abhidhamma; used in Vinaya in place of Abhidhamma Piṭaka; probably the original form of that (later) Piṭaka Vin.i.119, Vin.i.337; Vin.ii.8 [cp semantically in similar sense Lat. mātrix = E. matric i.e. register. In BSḳ. mātrikā
Ven. Ananda said, “There is the case, friend, where a monk masters the Dhamma: dialogues, narratives of mixed prose & verse, explanations, verses, spontaneous exclamations, quotations, birth stories, amazing events, question & answer sessions. He teaches the Dhamma in detail—as he has heard it, as he has remembered it—to others. He gets others to recite the Dhamma in detail—as they have heard it, as they have remembered it. He holds a group chanting of the Dhamma in detail—as he has heard it, as he has remembered it. He thinks about & evaluates the Dhamma as he has heard it, as he has remembered it; he contemplates it with his intellect. He enters the Rains in monasteries in which there are senior monks who are learned, who know the tradition, who are holders of the Dhamma, the Vinaya, & the Matika. 

-AN 6.51
So, the argument that the Abhidhamma strictly was not around nor approved of by the Buddha, and that it is something that came about long after his death and the compiling of the suttas is conclusively false. It was around and was called matika, and accepted by his immediate disciples. Simple as that. Arguments could be made that the existing Abhidhamma patika is an expanded version of the matikas, and that parts of it weren't around during the Buddha's time, however the argument that the entire Abhidhamma pitaka is a late, post Buddha invention is destroyed by the mention of the matikas in the suttas (in the above and also at AN 11.17, and per the dictionary entry above it is mentioned in the Vinaya. I'm looking for other mentions, I feel like I read a mention in DN but am having trouble finding it. Will update if I find it).
Assume all of my words on dhamma could be incorrect. Seek an arahant for truth.


"If we base ourselves on the Pali Nikayas, then we should be compelled to conclude that Buddhism is realistic. There is no explicit denial anywhere of the external world. Nor is there any positive evidence to show that the world is mind-made or simply a projection of subjective thoughts. That Buddhism recognizes the extra-mental existence of matter and the external world is clearly suggested by the texts. Throughout the discourses it is the language of realism that one encounters.
-Y. Karunadasa
Ontheway
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Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2021 3:35 pm

Re: Abhidhamma: word of Buddha?

Post by Ontheway »

zan wrote: Sun Sep 05, 2021 4:21 pm
Mātikā
feminine

a water course Vism.554 (˚âtikkamaka); Mhvs.35, Mhvs.96; Mhvs.37, Mhvs.50; Snp-a.500 (= sobbha); Dhp-a.ii.141 (its purpose: “ito c’ ito ca udakaṁ haritvā attano sassa-kammaṁ sampādenti”); Vv-a.301
tabulation, register, tabulated summary, condensed contents, esp. of philosophical parts of the Canonical books in the Abhidhamma; used in Vinaya in place of Abhidhamma Piṭaka; probably the original form of that (later) Piṭaka Vin.i.119, Vin.i.337; Vin.ii.8 [cp semantically in similar sense Lat. mātrix = E. matric i.e. register. In BSḳ. mātrikā
Ven. Ananda said, “There is the case, friend, where a monk masters the Dhamma: dialogues, narratives of mixed prose & verse, explanations, verses, spontaneous exclamations, quotations, birth stories, amazing events, question & answer sessions. He teaches the Dhamma in detail—as he has heard it, as he has remembered it—to others. He gets others to recite the Dhamma in detail—as they have heard it, as they have remembered it. He holds a group chanting of the Dhamma in detail—as he has heard it, as he has remembered it. He thinks about & evaluates the Dhamma as he has heard it, as he has remembered it; he contemplates it with his intellect. He enters the Rains in monasteries in which there are senior monks who are learned, who know the tradition, who are holders of the Dhamma, the Vinaya, & the Matika. 

-AN 6.51
So, the argument that the Abhidhamma strictly was not around nor approved of by the Buddha, and that it is something that came about long after his death and the compiling of the suttas is conclusively false. It was around and was called matika, and accepted by his immediate disciples. Simple as that. Arguments could be made that the existing Abhidhamma patika is an expanded version of the matikas, and that parts of it weren't around during the Buddha's time, however the argument that the entire Abhidhamma pitaka is a late, post Buddha invention is destroyed by the mention of the matikas in the suttas (in the above and also at AN 11.17, and per the dictionary entry above it is mentioned in the Vinaya. I'm looking for other mentions, I feel like I read a mention in DN but am having trouble finding it. Will update if I find it).
:goodpost:

I think the Pali term "Abhidhamma" was mentioned in some Suttanta text too, such as Mahagosinga sutta and Kinti Sutta.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
zan
Posts: 1402
Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2016 1:57 pm

Re: Abhidhamma: word of Buddha?

Post by zan »

Ontheway wrote: Sun Sep 05, 2021 4:51 pm
zan wrote: Sun Sep 05, 2021 4:21 pm
Mātikā
feminine

a water course Vism.554 (˚âtikkamaka); Mhvs.35, Mhvs.96; Mhvs.37, Mhvs.50; Snp-a.500 (= sobbha); Dhp-a.ii.141 (its purpose: “ito c’ ito ca udakaṁ haritvā attano sassa-kammaṁ sampādenti”); Vv-a.301
tabulation, register, tabulated summary, condensed contents, esp. of philosophical parts of the Canonical books in the Abhidhamma; used in Vinaya in place of Abhidhamma Piṭaka; probably the original form of that (later) Piṭaka Vin.i.119, Vin.i.337; Vin.ii.8 [cp semantically in similar sense Lat. mātrix = E. matric i.e. register. In BSḳ. mātrikā
Ven. Ananda said, “There is the case, friend, where a monk masters the Dhamma: dialogues, narratives of mixed prose & verse, explanations, verses, spontaneous exclamations, quotations, birth stories, amazing events, question & answer sessions. He teaches the Dhamma in detail—as he has heard it, as he has remembered it—to others. He gets others to recite the Dhamma in detail—as they have heard it, as they have remembered it. He holds a group chanting of the Dhamma in detail—as he has heard it, as he has remembered it. He thinks about & evaluates the Dhamma as he has heard it, as he has remembered it; he contemplates it with his intellect. He enters the Rains in monasteries in which there are senior monks who are learned, who know the tradition, who are holders of the Dhamma, the Vinaya, & the Matika. 

-AN 6.51
So, the argument that the Abhidhamma strictly was not around nor approved of by the Buddha, and that it is something that came about long after his death and the compiling of the suttas is conclusively false. It was around and was called matika, and accepted by his immediate disciples. Simple as that. Arguments could be made that the existing Abhidhamma patika is an expanded version of the matikas, and that parts of it weren't around during the Buddha's time, however the argument that the entire Abhidhamma pitaka is a late, post Buddha invention is destroyed by the mention of the matikas in the suttas (in the above and also at AN 11.17, and per the dictionary entry above it is mentioned in the Vinaya. I'm looking for other mentions, I feel like I read a mention in DN but am having trouble finding it. Will update if I find it).
:goodpost:

I think the Pali term "Abhidhamma" was mentioned in some Suttanta text too, such as Mahagosinga sutta and Kinti Sutta.
Didn't know this! Thanks for sharing!
“Here, friend Sāriputta, two bhikkhus engage in a talk on the higher Dhamma and they question each other, and each being questioned by the other answers without foundering, and their talk rolls on in accordance with the Dhamma. That kind of bhikkhu could illuminate this Gosinga Sāla-tree Wood.”

"Idhāvuso sāriputta, dve bhikkhū abhidhammakathaṁ kathenti, te aññamaññaṁ pañhaṁ pucchanti, aññamaññassa pañhaṁ puṭṭhā vissajjenti, no ca saṁsādenti, dhammī ca nesaṁ kathā pavattinī hoti.

-MN 32
So entirely "disproving" the Abhidhamma using the suttas would also necessitate disproving the suttas, and Vinaya, and so the entire Pali canon. Thus, it cannot be done. That wraps that up nicely. Again, showing that small parts of Abhidhamma may be late is possible, but entirely disproving it is quite impossible, as it's part of the suttas and Vinaya.
Assume all of my words on dhamma could be incorrect. Seek an arahant for truth.


"If we base ourselves on the Pali Nikayas, then we should be compelled to conclude that Buddhism is realistic. There is no explicit denial anywhere of the external world. Nor is there any positive evidence to show that the world is mind-made or simply a projection of subjective thoughts. That Buddhism recognizes the extra-mental existence of matter and the external world is clearly suggested by the texts. Throughout the discourses it is the language of realism that one encounters.
-Y. Karunadasa
Ontheway
Posts: 3062
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2021 3:35 pm

Re: Abhidhamma: word of Buddha?

Post by Ontheway »

zan wrote: Sun Sep 05, 2021 5:49 pm
Ontheway wrote: Sun Sep 05, 2021 4:51 pm
zan wrote: Sun Sep 05, 2021 4:21 pm



So, the argument that the Abhidhamma strictly was not around nor approved of by the Buddha, and that it is something that came about long after his death and the compiling of the suttas is conclusively false. It was around and was called matika, and accepted by his immediate disciples. Simple as that. Arguments could be made that the existing Abhidhamma patika is an expanded version of the matikas, and that parts of it weren't around during the Buddha's time, however the argument that the entire Abhidhamma pitaka is a late, post Buddha invention is destroyed by the mention of the matikas in the suttas (in the above and also at AN 11.17, and per the dictionary entry above it is mentioned in the Vinaya. I'm looking for other mentions, I feel like I read a mention in DN but am having trouble finding it. Will update if I find it).
:goodpost:

I think the Pali term "Abhidhamma" was mentioned in some Suttanta text too, such as Mahagosinga sutta and Kinti Sutta.
Didn't know this! Thanks for sharing!
“Here, friend Sāriputta, two bhikkhus engage in a talk on the higher Dhamma and they question each other, and each being questioned by the other answers without foundering, and their talk rolls on in accordance with the Dhamma. That kind of bhikkhu could illuminate this Gosinga Sāla-tree Wood.”

"Idhāvuso sāriputta, dve bhikkhū abhidhammakathaṁ kathenti, te aññamaññaṁ pañhaṁ pucchanti, aññamaññassa pañhaṁ puṭṭhā vissajjenti, no ca saṁsādenti, dhammī ca nesaṁ kathā pavattinī hoti.

-MN 32
So entirely "disproving" the Abhidhamma using the suttas would also necessitate disproving the suttas, and Vinaya, and so the entire Pali canon. Thus, it cannot be done. That wraps that up nicely. Again, showing that small parts of Abhidhamma may be late is possible, but entirely disproving it is quite impossible, as it's part of the suttas and Vinaya.
But it is happening today. People starting to dismiss Suttas. Just look at Thailand's famous Buddhadasa Bhikkhu. He literally said Pali Tipitaka contains Suttas that were not originally Buddhist teachings.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
zan
Posts: 1402
Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2016 1:57 pm

Re: Abhidhamma: word of Buddha?

Post by zan »

Ontheway wrote: Sun Sep 05, 2021 5:58 pm
zan wrote: Sun Sep 05, 2021 5:49 pm
Ontheway wrote: Sun Sep 05, 2021 4:51 pm

:goodpost:

I think the Pali term "Abhidhamma" was mentioned in some Suttanta text too, such as Mahagosinga sutta and Kinti Sutta.
Didn't know this! Thanks for sharing!
“Here, friend Sāriputta, two bhikkhus engage in a talk on the higher Dhamma and they question each other, and each being questioned by the other answers without foundering, and their talk rolls on in accordance with the Dhamma. That kind of bhikkhu could illuminate this Gosinga Sāla-tree Wood.”

"Idhāvuso sāriputta, dve bhikkhū abhidhammakathaṁ kathenti, te aññamaññaṁ pañhaṁ pucchanti, aññamaññassa pañhaṁ puṭṭhā vissajjenti, no ca saṁsādenti, dhammī ca nesaṁ kathā pavattinī hoti.

-MN 32
So entirely "disproving" the Abhidhamma using the suttas would also necessitate disproving the suttas, and Vinaya, and so the entire Pali canon. Thus, it cannot be done. That wraps that up nicely. Again, showing that small parts of Abhidhamma may be late is possible, but entirely disproving it is quite impossible, as it's part of the suttas and Vinaya.
But it is happening today. People starting to dismiss Suttas.

...
You're absolutely correct. The trend is to foist Mahayana, or other non traditional Buddhism interpretations of the Dhamma onto the Pali Canon and claim they are the true, correct interpretations, and when people present suttas or abhidhamma to disprove them, they say the suttas or abhidhamma that disprove their position are not legitimate, while hypocritically saying that the suttas that support them are legitimate. It is laughably flimsy, yet it continues.

Either the suttas are authoritative, or they're not. Cherry picking to support whatever one's personal interpretation is is underhanded and ultimately not a valid position. Once one has cast doubt on so many suttas to avoid their position being discredited as obviously incorrect and ruled out by the Buddha, they have also cast doubt on their own argument, since it uses suttas from the same source.
Assume all of my words on dhamma could be incorrect. Seek an arahant for truth.


"If we base ourselves on the Pali Nikayas, then we should be compelled to conclude that Buddhism is realistic. There is no explicit denial anywhere of the external world. Nor is there any positive evidence to show that the world is mind-made or simply a projection of subjective thoughts. That Buddhism recognizes the extra-mental existence of matter and the external world is clearly suggested by the texts. Throughout the discourses it is the language of realism that one encounters.
-Y. Karunadasa
Ontheway
Posts: 3062
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2021 3:35 pm

Re: Abhidhamma: word of Buddha?

Post by Ontheway »

zan wrote: Sun Sep 05, 2021 7:50 pm
Ontheway wrote: Sun Sep 05, 2021 5:58 pm
zan wrote: Sun Sep 05, 2021 5:49 pm

Didn't know this! Thanks for sharing!



So entirely "disproving" the Abhidhamma using the suttas would also necessitate disproving the suttas, and Vinaya, and so the entire Pali canon. Thus, it cannot be done. That wraps that up nicely. Again, showing that small parts of Abhidhamma may be late is possible, but entirely disproving it is quite impossible, as it's part of the suttas and Vinaya.
But it is happening today. People starting to dismiss Suttas.

...
You're absolutely correct. The trend is to foist Mahayana, or other non traditional Buddhism interpretations of the Dhamma onto the Pali Canon and claim they are the true, correct interpretations, and when people present suttas or abhidhamma to disprove them, they say the suttas or abhidhamma that disprove their position are not legitimate, while hypocritically saying that the suttas that support them are legitimate. It is laughably flimsy, yet it continues.

Either the suttas are authoritative, or they're not. Cherry picking to support whatever one's personal interpretation is is underhanded and ultimately not a valid position. Once one has cast doubt on so many suttas to avoid their position being discredited as obviously incorrect and ruled out by the Buddha, they have also cast doubt on their own argument, since it uses suttas from the same source.
For me, it is simple to see whether the monks or so-called Buddhist teachers upholding the true Dhamma or not.

When being questioned, they become eel-wriggling and distorting terminology here and there, mixing personal judgment with Buddha's teachings. Or claiming to achieve certain attainment yet it is totally in contrast with what Buddha taught. That is a first sign of misguided teachers.

Then, if they rejected the Atthakatha yet create a whole new interpretation that is no way accord to Nikayas, or borrow ideas from other religions, or claimed that certain Suttas are fake but some are real, without solid scientific evidence, as if they were with the Teacher. To me, that is a second sign.

Third, a monk or Buddhist leader claimed to hold Nikayas as supreme authority, yet when comes to detailed exposition, he/she invent new ideas or play guess or personal belief that originated from wrong views. That for me is another sign too.

No doubt they are many such people in the world. I avoid them at best. As the Buddha taught: "Asevana ca balanam" in Mangala Sutta.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
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