Abhidhamma: word of Buddha?

Exploring the Dhamma, as understood from the perspective of the ancient Pali commentaries.
Ontheway
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Re: Abhidhamma: word of Buddha?

Post by Ontheway »

Alino wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 3:40 am In my opinion, if Abhidhamma was taught by Lord Buddha himself, there wouldn't be a split between different schools ans wound be many Abhidhammas...
The split comes before the compilation of Abhidhamma Pitaka.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

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Alino
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Re: Abhidhamma: word of Buddha?

Post by Alino »

Ontheway wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 5:25 am
Alino wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 3:40 am In my opinion, if Abhidhamma was taught by Lord Buddha himself, there wouldn't be a split between different schools ans wound be many Abhidhammas...
The split comes before the compilation of Abhidhamma Pitaka.
So logicaly it means that Abhidhamma was not originally taught by the Buddha .. imo 🙏

Otherwise all students would be agree with what Buddha taught and never split
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robertk
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Re: Abhidhamma: word of Buddha?

Post by robertk »

Ontheway wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 5:25 am
Alino wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 3:40 am In my opinion, if Abhidhamma was taught by Lord Buddha himself, there wouldn't be a split between different schools ans wound be many Abhidhammas...
The split comes before the compilation of Abhidhamma Pitaka.
Where is your evidence for that? You mean the split happened before the first council?
Ontheway
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Re: Abhidhamma: word of Buddha?

Post by Ontheway »

robertk wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 7:31 am
Ontheway wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 5:25 am
Alino wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 3:40 am In my opinion, if Abhidhamma was taught by Lord Buddha himself, there wouldn't be a split between different schools ans wound be many Abhidhammas...
The split comes before the compilation of Abhidhamma Pitaka.
Where is your evidence for that? You mean the split happened before the first council?
No, it is after the first council. The first split is due to Vinaya problems, and later resulted 18 schools due doctrinal differences. Only when it comes to Arahant Moggaliputta Tissa and his fellow Arahat monks organized the Third Council, thus compiled and finalized the Theravada (or Vibhajjavada) Abhidhamma Pitaka.


*But if you counted Devadatta's action for Sanghabheda, then yes. But not in this context.
Last edited by Ontheway on Tue Sep 07, 2021 8:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

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Ontheway
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Re: Abhidhamma: word of Buddha?

Post by Ontheway »

Alino wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 7:01 am
Ontheway wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 5:25 am
Alino wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 3:40 am In my opinion, if Abhidhamma was taught by Lord Buddha himself, there wouldn't be a split between different schools ans wound be many Abhidhammas...
The split comes before the compilation of Abhidhamma Pitaka.
So logicaly it means that Abhidhamma was not originally taught by the Buddha .. imo 🙏

Otherwise all students would be agree with what Buddha taught and never split
It was true that Abhidhamma Pitaka (as we have today, it's obvious that there were no books written that era) wasn't officially formed in Buddha's era. Yet Abhidhamma teachings existed during the Buddha's time, as was preserved as Matika. From Arahat Sariputta Thera, a lineage of Theras were responsible for the preservation of Abhidhamma teachings, till Arahat Moggaliputta Tissa where he concluded with 7 books of Abhidhamma, no more and no less.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

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Mr. Seek
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Re: Abhidhamma: word of Buddha?

Post by Mr. Seek »

Personally I'm not so much interested in whether it was the direct word of the Buddha or that of his immediate disciples. What I'm curious of is whether it has applicability in one's EBT practice--and if so, just how much.

Sadly I'm not really versed in the matter, never bothered to study Abhidhamma because of its sheer complexity and what the general opinion about it is.
Ontheway
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Re: Abhidhamma: word of Buddha?

Post by Ontheway »

If that is the case, it is truly sad, indeed.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

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asahi
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Re: Abhidhamma: word of Buddha?

Post by asahi »

Still having Abhidhamma is far better than the secular which is having wrong view .
No bashing No gossiping
auto
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Re: Abhidhamma: word of Buddha?

Post by auto »

asahi wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 1:22 pm Still having Abhidhamma is far better than the secular which is having wrong view .
yes
asahi
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Re: Abhidhamma: word of Buddha?

Post by asahi »

auto wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 1:52 pm
asahi wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 1:22 pm Still having Abhidhamma is far better than the secular which is having wrong view .
yes
:toast:
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TRobinson465
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Re: Abhidhamma: word of Buddha?

Post by TRobinson465 »

I believe because of the writing style. Historians don't believe the abhidhamma, in it's current form, was the direct word of the Buddha (although Theravada believes it was compiled in it's current form by Sariputta anyways after the Buddha gave it to him). They also date the abhidhamma as being a few centuries later than the sutta pitaka and Vinaya pitaka. Although some scholars do also think that even if the actual abhidhamma pitaka came later, it was still based on something the Buddha actually did teach and there could have been an earlier abhidhamma that was simply lost to history that the current version is based on.


Also the argument that the Abhidhamma isn't legit because there are different versions is a very weak argument. The sutta pitaka and Vinaya pitaka have different versions as well. The Theravada Vinaya and sutta pitaka differs from the Dharmaguptika vinaya and sutta pitaka. They didn't have internet back then This is just something that naturally happens with any historical document that is copied and translated over millennia.

Personally. I don't see a reason why anyone would fabricate the abhidhamma and just insert it into the Canon, so I think it was at least based on some set of teachings that came from the Buddha. The fact that most if not all Buddhist schools have an abhidhamma rather than just having a Dipitaka suggests there is something legit about the abhidhamma. This is different from things like Mahayana sutras where it only shows up in some schools as pretty odd offs and not in others.
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Mr. Seek
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Re: Abhidhamma: word of Buddha?

Post by Mr. Seek »

TRobinson465 wrote: Thu Sep 30, 2021 5:17 pm The fact that most if not all Buddhist schools have an abhidhamma rather than just having a Dipitaka suggests there is something legit about the abhidhamma. This is different from things like Mahayana sutras where it only shows up in some schools as pretty odd offs...
Note that some schools and places also had a bodhisattva pitaka, a dharani pitaka, etc.

On topic: I think, I don't mind a non-Buddha origin of the Abhidhamma, so long as it is useful on the path.
TRobinson465
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Re: Abhidhamma: word of Buddha?

Post by TRobinson465 »

Mr. Seek wrote: Thu Sep 30, 2021 6:12 pm
Note that some schools and places also had a bodhisattva pitaka, a dharani pitaka, etc.
Yes but these are isolated to mostly those schools correct? Similar to Mahayana sutras.

The abhidhamma pitaka is prevalent across most Buddhist schools, thus suggesting a higher likelihood of an origin from the Buddha than a bodhisattva pitaka found in a few schools or Mahayana sutras found only in Mahayana schools.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"The Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta
Mr. Seek
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Re: Abhidhamma: word of Buddha?

Post by Mr. Seek »

TRobinson465 wrote: Thu Sep 30, 2021 6:20 pm
Mr. Seek wrote: Thu Sep 30, 2021 6:12 pm
Note that some schools and places also had a bodhisattva pitaka, a dharani pitaka, etc.
Yes but these are isolated to mostly those schools correct? Similar to Mahayana sutras.

The abhidhamma pitaka is prevalent across most Buddhist schools, thus suggesting a higher likelihood of an origin from the Buddha than a bodhisattva pitaka found in a few schools or Mahayana sutras found only in Mahayana schools.
True... But then again, some of these Abhidhamma pitakas are different from one another (from what I've heard), and thus this same arguement can be used in support of the theory that the Abhidhamma was used just as a sort of commentary, or something like that.

One of these days... I'll watch a full YouTube video about the Abhidhamma.... one of these days.
Ontheway
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Re: Abhidhamma: word of Buddha?

Post by Ontheway »

Mr. Seek wrote: Thu Sep 30, 2021 6:37 pm
TRobinson465 wrote: Thu Sep 30, 2021 6:20 pm
Mr. Seek wrote: Thu Sep 30, 2021 6:12 pm
Note that some schools and places also had a bodhisattva pitaka, a dharani pitaka, etc.
Yes but these are isolated to mostly those schools correct? Similar to Mahayana sutras.

The abhidhamma pitaka is prevalent across most Buddhist schools, thus suggesting a higher likelihood of an origin from the Buddha than a bodhisattva pitaka found in a few schools or Mahayana sutras found only in Mahayana schools.
True... But then again, some of these Abhidhamma pitakas are different from one another (from what I've heard), and thus this same arguement can be used in support of the theory that the Abhidhamma was used just as a sort of commentary, or something like that.

One of these days... I'll watch a full YouTube video about the Abhidhamma.... one of these days.
Why not pick up the Abhidhamma texts and read ?
If you listen to YouTube videos, you are listening to people's interpretation of the Abhidhamma Pitaka, not the Abhidhamma Pitaka.

Nowadays in the YouTube, all those Abhidhamma related videos are actually talking about Abhidhammattha Sangaha commentary, not the Abhidhamma Pitaka per se.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

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