Abhidhamma: word of Buddha?

Exploring the Dhamma, as understood from the perspective of the ancient Pali commentaries.
thomaslaw
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Re: Abhidhamma: word of Buddha?

Post by thomaslaw »

All early Buddhist texts are just texts, some being compiled early, some later. :buddha1:
zan
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Re: Abhidhamma: word of Buddha?

Post by zan »

thomaslaw wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 1:36 pm All early Buddhist texts are just texts, some being compiled early, some later. :buddha1:
With other early Buddhist texts canons, sure. However, the Pali canon has been agreed upon by councils. They even held one as recently as the fifties presided over by prominent Venerables like Mahasi Sayadaw. So the Pali canon only contains texts that are agreed upon as being Buddhavacana by authoritative Venerables. So, no, they're not mere texts that may be incredibly late, they're official documents agreed upon by Venerables like Mahasi Sayadaw in contemporary times, and Venerable Ananda in ancient times, and then other Venerables during the other four councils between.
Assume all of my words on dhamma could be incorrect. Seek an arahant for truth.


"If we base ourselves on the Pali Nikayas, then we should be compelled to conclude that Buddhism is realistic. There is no explicit denial anywhere of the external world. Nor is there any positive evidence to show that the world is mind-made or simply a projection of subjective thoughts. That Buddhism recognizes the extra-mental existence of matter and the external world is clearly suggested by the texts. Throughout the discourses it is the language of realism that one encounters.
-Y. Karunadasa
zan
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Re: Abhidhamma: word of Buddha?

Post by zan »

Ontheway wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 6:03 am
zan wrote: Sun Sep 05, 2021 7:50 pm
Ontheway wrote: Sun Sep 05, 2021 5:58 pm

But it is happening today. People starting to dismiss Suttas.

...
You're absolutely correct. The trend is to foist Mahayana, or other non traditional Buddhism interpretations of the Dhamma onto the Pali Canon and claim they are the true, correct interpretations, and when people present suttas or abhidhamma to disprove them, they say the suttas or abhidhamma that disprove their position are not legitimate, while hypocritically saying that the suttas that support them are legitimate. It is laughably flimsy, yet it continues.

Either the suttas are authoritative, or they're not. Cherry picking to support whatever one's personal interpretation is is underhanded and ultimately not a valid position. Once one has cast doubt on so many suttas to avoid their position being discredited as obviously incorrect and ruled out by the Buddha, they have also cast doubt on their own argument, since it uses suttas from the same source.
For me, it is simple to see whether the monks or so-called Buddhist teachers upholding the true Dhamma or not.

When being questioned, they become eel-wriggling and distorting terminology here and there, mixing personal judgment with Buddha's teachings. Or claiming to achieve certain attainment yet it is totally in contrast with what Buddha taught. That is a first sign of misguided teachers.

Then, if they rejected the Atthakatha yet create a whole new interpretation that is no way accord to Nikayas, or borrow ideas from other religions, or claimed that certain Suttas are fake but some are real, without solid scientific evidence, as if they were with the Teacher. To me, that is a second sign.

Third, a monk or Buddhist leader claimed to hold Nikayas as supreme authority, yet when comes to detailed exposition, he/she invent new ideas or play guess or personal belief that originated from wrong views. That for me is another sign too.

No doubt they are many such people in the world. I avoid them at best. As the Buddha taught: "Asevana ca balanam" in Mangala Sutta.
While I've no comment about any Venerable, which is why I clipped your above post in my reply (specifically because I don't even know anything about Venerable Buddhadasa, and wanted to be clear I wasn't responding to that part of your post), with this post, I don't know enough to comment on any other Venerables, either, but other than that I can say you're making a lot of sense generally. Thank you for sharing.
Assume all of my words on dhamma could be incorrect. Seek an arahant for truth.


"If we base ourselves on the Pali Nikayas, then we should be compelled to conclude that Buddhism is realistic. There is no explicit denial anywhere of the external world. Nor is there any positive evidence to show that the world is mind-made or simply a projection of subjective thoughts. That Buddhism recognizes the extra-mental existence of matter and the external world is clearly suggested by the texts. Throughout the discourses it is the language of realism that one encounters.
-Y. Karunadasa
thomaslaw
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Re: Abhidhamma: word of Buddha?

Post by thomaslaw »

zan wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 2:52 pm
thomaslaw wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 1:36 pm All early Buddhist texts are just texts, some being compiled early, some later. :buddha1:
they're official documents ...
Official documents are texts.
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cappuccino
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Re: Abhidhamma: word of Buddha?

Post by cappuccino »

zan wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 2:52 pm With other early Buddhist texts canons, sure. However, the Pali canon has been agreed upon by councils. They even held one as recently as the fifties presided over by prominent Venerables like Mahasi Sayadaw. So the Pali canon only contains texts that are agreed upon as being Buddhavacana by authoritative Venerables. So, no, they're not mere texts that may be incredibly late, they're official documents agreed upon by Venerables like Mahasi Sayadaw in contemporary times, and Venerable Ananda in ancient times, and then other Venerables during the other four councils between.
:goodpost:
SarathW
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Re: Abhidhamma: word of Buddha?

Post by SarathW »

Gwi wrote: Sat Sep 04, 2021 6:44 am Ofc. 1.000%

Nobody cant teach Buddha's religion well
"without quoting Abhidhammå"
Agree.
Many people use Abhidhamma without knowing that they are quoting Abhidhamma.
Same people put down the Abhidhamma teaching.
In my opinion, Abhidhamma is the additional commentary on Sutta.
It is unfair to question the validity or the suitability of any commentary.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
zan
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Re: Abhidhamma: word of Buddha?

Post by zan »

thomaslaw wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 11:53 pm
zan wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 2:52 pm
thomaslaw wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 1:36 pm All early Buddhist texts are just texts, some being compiled early, some later. :buddha1:
they're official documents ...
Official documents are texts.
Well you were saying "just texts" seemingly reducing their importance with the word "just". I was meaning to elevate them above "just texts" to "official documents". All texts are just texts, however not all texts are official documents. But you knew this already.
Assume all of my words on dhamma could be incorrect. Seek an arahant for truth.


"If we base ourselves on the Pali Nikayas, then we should be compelled to conclude that Buddhism is realistic. There is no explicit denial anywhere of the external world. Nor is there any positive evidence to show that the world is mind-made or simply a projection of subjective thoughts. That Buddhism recognizes the extra-mental existence of matter and the external world is clearly suggested by the texts. Throughout the discourses it is the language of realism that one encounters.
-Y. Karunadasa
thomaslaw
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Re: Abhidhamma: word of Buddha?

Post by thomaslaw »

zan wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 1:15 am
thomaslaw wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 11:53 pm
zan wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 2:52 pm
they're official documents ...
Official documents are texts.
All texts are just texts, however not all texts are official documents.
Exactly! :jumping: :twothumbsup: :clap:
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cappuccino
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Re: Abhidhamma: word of Buddha?

Post by cappuccino »

thomaslaw wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 1:43 am
zan wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 1:15 am
thomaslaw wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 11:53 pm

Official documents are texts.
All texts are just texts, however not all texts are official documents.
Exactly!
Not exactly
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Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
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Re: Abhidhamma: word of Buddha?

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta »

SarathW wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 12:35 am ...
Many people use Abhidhamma without knowing that they are quoting Abhidhamma.

That's so true. I'm one of them. :thumbsup:

Maybe unknowingly misquoting at times by me, that's a different matter tho. :mrgreen:

:heart:
𝓑𝓾𝓭𝓭𝓱𝓪 𝓗𝓪𝓭 𝓤𝓷𝓮𝓺𝓾𝓲𝓿𝓸𝓬𝓪𝓵𝓵𝔂 𝓓𝓮𝓬𝓵𝓪𝓻𝓮𝓭 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽
  • Iᴅᴇᴀ ᴏꜰ Sᴏᴜʟ ɪs Oᴜᴛᴄᴏᴍᴇ ᴏꜰ ᴀɴ Uᴛᴛᴇʀʟʏ Fᴏᴏʟɪsʜ Vɪᴇᴡ
    V. Nanananda

𝓐𝓷𝓪𝓽𝓽ā 𝓜𝓮𝓪𝓷𝓼 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽 𝓣𝓱𝓮𝓻𝓮 𝓘𝓼
  • Nᴏ sᴜᴄʜ ᴛʜɪɴɢ ᴀs ᴀ Sᴇʟғ, Sᴏᴜʟ, Eɢᴏ, Sᴘɪʀɪᴛ, ᴏʀ Āᴛᴍᴀɴ
    V. Buddhādasa
SarathW
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Re: Abhidhamma: word of Buddha?

Post by SarathW »

Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 2:50 am
SarathW wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 12:35 am ...
Many people use Abhidhamma without knowing that they are quoting Abhidhamma.

That's so true. I'm one of them. :thumbsup:

Maybe unknowingly misquoting at times by me, that's a different matter tho. :mrgreen:

:heart:
I think it is a matter.
If you want to oppose Abhidhamma you should learn it first and Tipitaka.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
thomaslaw
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Re: Abhidhamma: word of Buddha?

Post by thomaslaw »

cappuccino wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 1:44 am
thomaslaw wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 1:43 am
zan wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 1:15 am

All texts are just texts, however not all texts are official documents.
Exactly!
Not exactly
Exactly! :clap: :jumping: :twothumbsup: :thumbsup:
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Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
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Re: Abhidhamma: word of Buddha?

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta »

SarathW wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 3:02 am
Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 2:50 am
SarathW wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 12:35 am ...
Many people use Abhidhamma without knowing that they are quoting Abhidhamma.

That's so true. I'm one of them. :thumbsup:

Maybe unknowingly misquoting at times by me, that's a different matter tho. :mrgreen:

:heart:
I think it is a matter.
If you want to oppose Abhidhamma you should learn it first and Tipitaka.

So true, again. :thumbsup:
𝓑𝓾𝓭𝓭𝓱𝓪 𝓗𝓪𝓭 𝓤𝓷𝓮𝓺𝓾𝓲𝓿𝓸𝓬𝓪𝓵𝓵𝔂 𝓓𝓮𝓬𝓵𝓪𝓻𝓮𝓭 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽
  • Iᴅᴇᴀ ᴏꜰ Sᴏᴜʟ ɪs Oᴜᴛᴄᴏᴍᴇ ᴏꜰ ᴀɴ Uᴛᴛᴇʀʟʏ Fᴏᴏʟɪsʜ Vɪᴇᴡ
    V. Nanananda

𝓐𝓷𝓪𝓽𝓽ā 𝓜𝓮𝓪𝓷𝓼 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽 𝓣𝓱𝓮𝓻𝓮 𝓘𝓼
  • Nᴏ sᴜᴄʜ ᴛʜɪɴɢ ᴀs ᴀ Sᴇʟғ, Sᴏᴜʟ, Eɢᴏ, Sᴘɪʀɪᴛ, ᴏʀ Āᴛᴍᴀɴ
    V. Buddhādasa
SarathW
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Re: Abhidhamma: word of Buddha?

Post by SarathW »

thomaslaw wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 3:10 am
cappuccino wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 1:44 am
thomaslaw wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 1:43 am

Exactly!
Not exactly
Exactly! :clap: :jumping: :twothumbsup: :thumbsup:
What do you mean by official?
Handed down directly by the Office of Gods?
:tongue:
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
Alino
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Re: Abhidhamma: word of Buddha?

Post by Alino »

In my opinion, if Abhidhamma was taught by Lord Buddha himself, there wouldn't be a split between different schools ans wound be many Abhidhammas...
We don't live Samsara, Samsara is living us...

"Form, feelings, perceptions, formations, consciousness - don't care about us, we don't exist for them"
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