Should the Vinaya (Patimokkha) be kept secret from the laity?

Exploring the Dhamma, as understood from the perspective of the ancient Pali commentaries.
BKh
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Re: Should the Vinaya (Patimokkha) be kept secret from the laity?

Post by BKh »

thomaslaw wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 4:55 am I am interested in the traditional Theravada teaching
Can you tell us what you will accept as proof? Because JamesTheGiant already told you what the traditional Theravada teaching is and you are claiming that it is just his view.
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asahi
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Re: Should the Vinaya (Patimokkha) be kept secret from the laity?

Post by asahi »

DooDoot wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 1:32 am Since much of the Vinaya is about how the bhikkhus must behave towards the laity then naturally it should be known by the laity.

For example, if monks said to ladies "if you have sex with a monk like me you will be reborn in heaven", ladies without basic knowledge of Vinaya would not know this is wrong and would not know as soon as a monk has sex he is no longer a monk. Therefore, there can be no such thing as a monk having sex with a lady.

If laypeople did not know of Vinaya, it would end up like the sexual misconduct in Mahayana. :? :x :(
Good point except that Mahayana tradition has nothing to do with Theravada tradition in this forum . And FYI majority of Mahayana monks do observe precept very strictly . It is not very good as a buddhist to insult others do you think so ?

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dharmacorps
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Re: Should the Vinaya (Patimokkha) be kept secret from the laity?

Post by dharmacorps »

OP, James is a respected practitioner and former bhikkhu. His answers are truthful and correct and your rejection is perplexing.
thomaslaw
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Re: Should the Vinaya (Patimokkha) be kept secret from the laity?

Post by thomaslaw »

BKh wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 9:36 am
thomaslaw wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 4:55 am I am interested in the traditional Theravada teaching
Can you tell us what you will accept as proof?
I think the best proof of this Vinaya teaching in Thailand will be a statement from The Sangha Supreme Council of Thailand. :buddha1:

The council is respected as authoritative for the Vinaya teaching in Thailand.
Last edited by thomaslaw on Fri Jul 30, 2021 6:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
BKh
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Re: Should the Vinaya (Patimokkha) be kept secret from the laity?

Post by BKh »

thomaslaw wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 6:18 am I think the best proof of this Vinaya teaching in Thailand will be a statement from The Sangha Supreme Council of Thailand. :buddha1:
I don't think they are an active user of DhammaWheel. Odd that you would come here asking a question when you weren't prepared to accept the answer from anyone here.

EDIT: OK, maybe you were expecting someone here to know about a statement that the SSCT had written? The trick is, if your interpretation of the rule is incorrect, then there would be no need for a statement.
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asahi
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Re: Should the Vinaya (Patimokkha) be kept secret from the laity?

Post by asahi »

If we refer back to the suttas and vinaya , one can see where the lay persons constantly lodged complaint to the Buddha how misbehaved His disciples was , that is evidently clear lay persons knows much of the monks precepts at ancient times . Pro side of the coin ? But if we were to look the other way round , if a lay person knowing too much of the vinaya and constantly criticising the monastic would led to their own misfortune by creating bad kamma . So this maybe a con side . Perhaps this is perspective of the Mahayana and Vajrayana .
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TRobinson465
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Re: Should the Vinaya (Patimokkha) be kept secret from the laity?

Post by TRobinson465 »

thomaslaw wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 1:04 am According to the Uposathakkhandhaka (sections 16.8 and 36) in the Pali Vinaya, the Buddha, without giving any reasons, simply does not allow Bhikkhus to recite Patimokkha with laypeople, non-Bhikkhus. If not following this rule, the monk has committed a "dukkata" (wrong/evil action).
Yes i remember hearing about this too when i was a monk. Also that laypeople and novices cannot be in the room when a bhikkhu is confessing a transgression. I was told the reason for it was so laypeople would not think badly of monks who make mistakes or so laypeople would not actively try to find fault in the actions of bhikkhus, which can result in bad kamma for the layperson. I think its possible the specifics of the vinaya actually was kept from the laity in the Buddhas time (cuz like, how would they have known the rules otherwise without access to internet or printed copies of it) for this very reason. But obviously you cant keep it a secret in todays world of easy access to information. Since its something that isnt even possible i dont see a reason to try to keep it a secret. Bhikkhus should still follow the rules of not confessing transgressions in front of laypeople and not reciting the patimokkha with laypeople, but as stated earlier there is no reason to stop a layperson from sitting there and studying the vinaya. If one chooses to study the vinaya they can, they should just be mindful and avoid using that knowledge to try to find fault in bhikkhus.
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thomaslaw
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Re: Should the Vinaya (Patimokkha) be kept secret from the laity?

Post by thomaslaw »

TRobinson465 wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 4:35 am
thomaslaw wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 1:04 am According to the Uposathakkhandhaka (sections 16.8 and 36) in the Pali Vinaya, the Buddha, without giving any reasons, simply does not allow Bhikkhus to recite Patimokkha with laypeople, non-Bhikkhus. If not following this rule, the monk has committed a "dukkata" (wrong/evil action).
Yes i remember hearing about this too when i was a monk. Also that laypeople and novices cannot be in the room when a bhikkhu is confessing a transgression. I was told the reason for it was so laypeople would not think badly of monks who make mistakes or so laypeople would not actively try to find fault in the actions of bhikkhus, which can result in bad kamma for the layperson. I think its possible the specifics of the vinaya actually was kept from the laity in the Buddhas time (cuz like, how would they have known the rules otherwise without access to internet or printed copies of it) for this very reason. But obviously you cant keep it a secret in todays world of easy access to information. Since its something that isnt even possible i dont see a reason to try to keep it a secret. Bhikkhus should still follow the rules of not confessing transgressions in front of laypeople and not reciting the patimokkha with laypeople, but as stated earlier there is no reason to stop a layperson from sitting there and studying the vinaya. If one chooses to study the vinaya they can, they should just be mindful and avoid using that knowledge to try to find fault in bhikkhus.
Yes, as stated above:

In reality, no one is able to stop laity, non-Bhikkhus, to read or study the Vinaya Pitaka. Everyone can read and study the text. This is not the issue of education.

Also:

The recitation of Patimokkha is not just ritual practice of recitation. It refers also to teaching and practice of the Patimokkha. When teaching the Patimokkha to laypeople, non-Bhikkhus, it naturally has to recite and explain the words/texts of the Patimokkha.
BKh
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Re: Should the Vinaya (Patimokkha) be kept secret from the laity?

Post by BKh »

TRobinson465 wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 4:35 am Also that laypeople and novices cannot be in the room when a bhikkhu is confessing a transgression. I was told the reason for it was so laypeople would not think badly of monks who make mistakes...
This is not a vinaya rule (i.e. to confess one's own offense to lay people or in front of lay people). However it is a very sensible practice for the reasons you state.
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thomaslaw
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Re: Should the Vinaya (Patimokkha) be kept secret from the laity?

Post by thomaslaw »

thomaslaw wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 4:52 am
TRobinson465 wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 4:35 am
thomaslaw wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 1:04 am According to the Uposathakkhandhaka (sections 16.8 and 36) in the Pali Vinaya, the Buddha, without giving any reasons, simply does not allow Bhikkhus to recite Patimokkha with laypeople, non-Bhikkhus. If not following this rule, the monk has committed a "dukkata" (wrong/evil action).
Yes i remember hearing about this too when i was a monk. Also that laypeople and novices cannot be in the room when a bhikkhu is confessing a transgression. I was told the reason for it was so laypeople would not think badly of monks who make mistakes or so laypeople would not actively try to find fault in the actions of bhikkhus, which can result in bad kamma for the layperson. I think its possible the specifics of the vinaya actually was kept from the laity in the Buddhas time (cuz like, how would they have known the rules otherwise without access to internet or printed copies of it) for this very reason. But obviously you cant keep it a secret in todays world of easy access to information. Since its something that isnt even possible i dont see a reason to try to keep it a secret. Bhikkhus should still follow the rules of not confessing transgressions in front of laypeople and not reciting the patimokkha with laypeople, but as stated earlier there is no reason to stop a layperson from sitting there and studying the vinaya. If one chooses to study the vinaya they can, they should just be mindful and avoid using that knowledge to try to find fault in bhikkhus.
Yes, as stated above:

In reality, no one is able to stop laity, non-Bhikkhus, to read or study the Vinaya Pitaka. Everyone can read and study the text. This is not the issue of education.

Also:

The recitation of Patimokkha is not just ritual practice of recitation. It refers also to teaching and practice of the Patimokkha. When teaching the Patimokkha to laypeople, non-Bhikkhus, it naturally has to recite and explain the words/texts of the Patimokkha.
So, one may consider if a Bhikkhu teaching the Patimokkha to laypeople/non-Bhikkhus, he may have committed a "dukkata" (according to the Uposathakkhandhaka (sections 16.8 and 36) in the Pali Vinaya); and the Vinaya (Patimokkha) thus should be kept secret from the laity?
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JamesTheGiant
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Re: Should the Vinaya (Patimokkha) be kept secret from the laity?

Post by JamesTheGiant »

thomaslaw wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 2:31 am So, one may consider if a Bhikkhu teaching the Patimokkha to laypeople/non-Bhikkhus, he may have committed a "dukkata" (according to the Uposathakkhandhaka (sections 16.8 and 36) in the Pali Vinaya); and the Vinaya (Patimokkha) thus should be kept secret from the laity?
Again, no. Bhikkhus are allowed to teach the patimokkha, and that's not what Recite With means, and laypeople are even allowed to listen to the recitation if they're not within the boundary.

But I feel that you're not going to accept any of this, unless the Supreme Sangha itself meets and tells you directly.

Besides, this is a silly argument because the vinaya is all freely available to anyone online these days, and also if you visit a monastery you are welcome to read the vinaya in the monastery library and ask the monks about it. Go, ask.
BKh
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Re: Should the Vinaya (Patimokkha) be kept secret from the laity?

Post by BKh »

thomaslaw wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 2:31 am So, one may consider if a Bhikkhu teaching the Patimokkha to laypeople/non-Bhikkhus, he may have committed a "dukkata" (according to the Uposathakkhandhaka (sections 16.8 and 36) in the Pali Vinaya); and the Vinaya (Patimokkha) thus should be kept secret from the laity?
You've already made it clear that you aren't going to accept our answer (unless it comes from the Sangha Supreme Council of Thailand). Why don't you contact them and report back to us.

Also, you know that you can call Ajahn Thansissaro and talk to him on the phone? He answers for an hour each night when he's in the monastery. Just check the monastery website.
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TRobinson465
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Re: Should the Vinaya (Patimokkha) be kept secret from the laity?

Post by TRobinson465 »

BKh wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 10:13 am
thomaslaw wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 2:31 am So, one may consider if a Bhikkhu teaching the Patimokkha to laypeople/non-Bhikkhus, he may have committed a "dukkata" (according to the Uposathakkhandhaka (sections 16.8 and 36) in the Pali Vinaya); and the Vinaya (Patimokkha) thus should be kept secret from the laity?
You've already made it clear that you aren't going to accept our answer (unless it comes from the Sangha Supreme Council of Thailand). Why don't you contact them and report back to us.

Also, you know that you can call Ajahn Thansissaro and talk to him on the phone? He answers for an hour each night when he's in the monastery. Just check the monastery website.
Yes. Also the question was of Theravada Buddhism. The sangha supreme council of Thailand is only the highest authority in Thai Buddhism not Theravada in general. So a statement of them would only provide clarity on the position of Thai Theravada Buddhism. The SSC of Thailand does differ sometimes from other authorities. For instance I think the sri lankan sangha has allowed the ordination of Theravada bhikkhunis using dharmaguptika bhikkhunis whereas the Thai SSC does not recognize this practice as a legitimate ordination process.

BKh is also right that asking thanissaro bhikkhu would probably give you an answer. As treasurer of the dhammayut order in Thailand his position would probably be similar to the positions of the SSC of Thailand since their positions tend to skew toward dhammayut considering the political makeup of the council and most of the recent supreme patriarchs.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"The Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta
TRobinson465
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Re: Should the Vinaya (Patimokkha) be kept secret from the laity?

Post by TRobinson465 »

TRobinson465 wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 5:01 pm As treasurer of the dhammayut order in Thailand his position would probably be similar to the positions of the SSC of Thailand since their positions tend to skew toward dhammayut considering the political makeup of the council and most of the recent supreme patriarchs.
Apologies. I misspoke. He is treasurer of the dhammayut order of the USA, not Thailand.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"The Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta
thomaslaw
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Re: Should the Vinaya (Patimokkha) be kept secret from the laity?

Post by thomaslaw »

TRobinson465 wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 5:01 pm
Yes. Also the question was of Theravada Buddhism. The sangha supreme council of Thailand is only the highest authority in Thai Buddhism not Theravada in general. So a statement of them would only provide clarity on the position of Thai Theravada Buddhism. The SSC of Thailand does differ sometimes from other authorities. For instance I think the sri lankan sangha has allowed the ordination of Theravada bhikkhunis using dharmaguptika bhikkhunis whereas the Thai SSC does not recognize this practice as a legitimate ordination process.
Yes, different Theravada sanghas may have different views and interpretations on the Vinaya teachings, even though the Pali Vinaya texts are the same.

It is difficult to receive a statement officially from the Thai sangha supreme council. Hopefully someone here is able to provide other Theravada sanghas, such as Sri Lanka, Myanmar (Burma).

Laos and Cambodia's Theravada traditions possibly follow closely with Thai sangha?
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