Fruition Candidacy and Āryans in Theravāda

Exploring the Dhamma, as understood from the perspective of the ancient Pali commentaries.
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Coëmgenu
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Fruition Candidacy and Āryans in Theravāda

Post by Coëmgenu »

Is a candidate for stream-entry still considered to be an Ariya in Theravāda?
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Fruition Candidacy and Āryans in Theravāda

Post by Coëmgenu »

Basically, I'm wondering if people can claim themselves to be saddhānusārins, etc., and not be claiming to be an Āriya according to the traditional understanding of Theravāda Buddhism. I have a suspected answer, but I'm curious to know if there's any precedent for non-Āriya saddhānusārins and dhammānusārins.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
SarathW
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Re: Fruition Candidacy and Āryans in Theravāda

Post by SarathW »

The way I understand, normally Ariya is used for Sotapanna and onwards.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Re: Fruition Candidacy and Āryans in Theravāda

Post by BrokenBones »

Coëmgenu wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 8:58 pm Is a candidate for stream-entry still considered to be an Ariya in Theravāda?
I personally think the 'credentials' for stream entry have become distorted. I think people are expecting an 'aha!' moment where in fact nowhere in the suttas is this indicated. The aha! moment is fruition.
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Re: Fruition Candidacy and Āryans in Theravāda

Post by DooDoot »

Coëmgenu wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 8:58 pm Is a candidate for stream-entry still considered to be an Ariya in Theravāda?
Buddhists who have lived a Buddhist life, such as visiting & living in Dhamma centres & monasteries, have chanted many times there are 4 sets of noble ones comprised of eight stages. The basic chant is:
Yadidaṁ cattāri purisa-yugāni aṭṭha purisa-puggalā:

i.e., the four pairs—the eight types—of noble ones:

Esa bhagavato sāvaka-saṅgho—

That is the Saṅgha of the Blessed One’s disciples—

https://www.dhammatalks.org/books/Chant ... n0004.html
:alien: :alien:
Coëmgenu wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 11:21 pm Basically, I'm wondering if people can claim themselves to be saddhānusārins, etc., and not be claiming to be an Āriya according to the traditional understanding of Theravāda Buddhism. I have a suspected answer, but I'm curious to know if there's any precedent for non-Āriya saddhānusārins and dhammānusārins.
MN 22 distinguishes faith-followers from stream-enterers.
MN 22 wrote:In this teaching there are mendicants who have ended three fetters. All of them are stream-enterers, not liable to be reborn in the underworld, bound for awakening. …

Evaṁ svākkhāte, bhikkhave, mayā dhamme uttāne vivaṭe pakāsite chinnapilotike yesaṁ bhikkhūnaṁ tīṇi saṁyojanāni pahīnāni, sabbe te sotāpannā, avinipātadhammā, niyatā sambodhiparāyanā.

Evaṁ svākkhāto, bhikkhave, mayā dhammo uttāno vivaṭo pakāsito chinnapilotiko.
In this teaching there are mendicants who are followers of principles, or followers by faith. All of them are bound for awakening.

Evaṁ svākkhāte, bhikkhave, mayā dhamme uttāne vivaṭe pakāsite chinnapilotike ye te bhikkhū dhammānusārino saddhānusārino sabbe te sambodhiparāyanā.

https://suttacentral.net/mn22/en/sujato
:alien: :rolleye:
Last edited by DooDoot on Thu Sep 23, 2021 1:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Fruition Candidacy and Āryans in Theravāda

Post by BrokenBones »

DooDoot wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 1:03 am
Coëmgenu wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 8:58 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 11:21 pm Basically, I'm wondering if people can claim themselves to be saddhānusārins, etc., and not be claiming to be an Āriya according to the traditional understanding of Theravāda Buddhism. I have a suspected answer, but I'm curious to know if there's any precedent for non-Āriya saddhānusārins and dhammānusārins.
MN 22 distinguishes faith-followers from stream-enterers.
MN 22 wrote:In this teaching there are mendicants who have ended three fetters. All of them are stream-enterers, not liable to be REborn in the underworld, bound for awakening. …

Evaṁ svākkhāte, bhikkhave, mayā dhamme uttāne vivaṭe pakāsite chinnapilotike yesaṁ bhikkhūnaṁ tīṇi saṁyojanāni pahīnāni, sabbe te sotāpannā, avinipātadhammā, niyatā sambodhiparāyanā.

Evaṁ svākkhāto, bhikkhave, mayā dhammo uttāno vivaṭo pakāsito chinnapilotiko.
In this teaching there are mendicants who are followers of principles, or followers by faith. All of them are bound for awakening.

Evaṁ svākkhāte, bhikkhave, mayā dhamme uttāne vivaṭe pakāsite chinnapilotike ye te bhikkhū dhammānusārino saddhānusārino sabbe te sambodhiparāyanā.

https://suttacentral.net/mn22/en/sujato
:alien: :rolleye:
The Buddha appears to be distinguishing stream enterers who have attained fruition from stream enterers who haven't.

"In this teaching there are mendicants who have ended three fetters. All of them are stream-enterers, not liable to be reborn in the underworld, bound for awakening. …
In this teaching there are mendicants who are followers of principles, or followers by faith. All of them are bound for awakening."


As far as I understand things... nobody is bound for awakening other than the bodhisatta or a stream enterer.

https://suttacentral.net/mn22/en/sujato
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Re: Fruition Candidacy and Āryans in Theravāda

Post by cappuccino »

DooDoot wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 2:48 am no longer subject to perdition
perdition is freezing, burning
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Re: Fruition Candidacy and Āryans in Theravāda

Post by BrokenBones »

This thread is getting derailed (yet again) but I have to ask...

Are stream enterers allowed to be nasty/evil seven times and then they're Arahants or is it that they forget annata seven times and then become Arahant's?

Sounds like bullshit to me.

As for the OP... the Buddha outlines in several places how one can assess for oneself whether one is a stream enterer or not. There appears to be no 'vision' of the Dhamma until fruition; although many in the suttas seem to enter the path and achieve fruition in the same discourse from the Buddha. The Buddha also makes it clear that if fruition does not occur immediately for a stream enterer they are assured of fruition before or at the time of passing away.

The suttas are out there and posting on my phone is not ideal for searching them out.
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Re: Fruition Candidacy and Āryans in Theravāda

Post by DooDoot »

BrokenBones wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 4:34 am This thread is getting derailed (yet again) but I have to ask...
Stream-enterers do not tell lies therefore they would never translate "avinipātadhammā" including the translation of "reborn".
BrokenBones wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 4:34 amAre stream enterers allowed to be nasty/evil seven times and then they're Arahants or is it that they forget annatta seven times and then become Arahant's?
Stream-enterer has 7 more fetters to breakthrough. Refer to SN 13.1 (which doesn't have any equivalent to the word "lives" in the Pali).
BrokenBones wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 4:34 amSounds like bullshit to me.
The teaching of the 10 fetters is not bullshit. Stream-enterer has clearly directly seen 'self' is merely a superstitious illusion yet self-view can still arise in their mind in certain circumstances. :ugeek:
Last edited by DooDoot on Thu Sep 23, 2021 4:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: Fruition Candidacy and Āryans in Theravāda

Post by samseva »

Coëmgenu wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 11:21 pm Basically, I'm wondering if people can claim themselves to be saddhānusārins, etc., and not be claiming to be an Āriya according to the traditional understanding of Theravāda Buddhism.
No, probably not. I don't understand how it would make sense to describe non-stream-enterers as such. Saying a yet-to-be stream-enterer is a faith-based stream-enterer—when the person is not a stream-enterer?
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Re: Fruition Candidacy and Āryans in Theravāda

Post by Ontheway »

Coëmgenu wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 8:58 pm Is a candidate for stream-entry still considered to be an Ariya in Theravāda?
Both Saddhānusārī and Dhammānusārī are not full-fledged Ariyas yet. These people will soon continue striving and practice (following the path of attaining Sotapanna, hence Sotapatti Magga), and need to breakthrough the three underlying fetters.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

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Re: Fruition Candidacy and Āryans in Theravāda

Post by Coëmgenu »

What is the "technical" difference between a dhammānusārī and a stream-entry-candidate? What does the dhammānusārī lack in comparison?
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Re: Fruition Candidacy and Āryans in Theravāda

Post by Ontheway »

I will quote Bhikkhu Sujato's words:

"One with faith in the teachings on the six interior sense fields is called a “follower by faith”, while someone with conceptual understanding is called a “follower of the teachings”. But someone who sees them directly is called a stream-enterer."

It is quite clear in the Suttanta texts.
https://suttacentral.net/sn25

So both Saddhānusārī and Dhammānusārī still have to practice further in order to become Sotapanna.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
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Re: Fruition Candidacy and Āryans in Theravāda

Post by samseva »

Here is Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation of SN25.1—along with his annotations:
At Sāvatthī. “Bhikkhus, the eye is impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise. The ear … The nose … The tongue … The body … The mind is impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise. One who places faith in these teachings and resolves on them thus is called a faith-follower, one who has entered the fixed course of rightness, entered the plane of superior persons, transcended the plane of the worldlings. He is incapable of doing any deed by reason of which he might be reborn in hell, in the animal realm, or in the domain of ghosts; he is incapable of passing away without having realized the fruit of stream-entry. [268]

“One for whom these teachings are accepted thus after being pondered to a sufficient degree with wisdom is called a Dhamma-follower, [269] one who has entered the fixed course of rightness, entered the plane of superior persons, transcended the plane of the worldlings. He is incapable of doing any deed by reason of which he might be reborn in hell, in the animal realm, or in the domain of ghosts; he is incapable of passing away without having realized the fruit of stream-entry.

“One who knows and sees these teachings thus is called a stream-enterer, no longer bound to the nether world, fixed in destiny, with enlightenment as his destination.” [270]
Bhikkhu Bohdi wrote:268. The faith-follower (saddhānusārī) and the Dhamma-follower (dhammānusārī), described just below, are the two classes of disciples who are practising for realization of the fruit of stream-entry. The two are the lowest ranking members of a comprehensive sevenfold typology of noble disciples found, with formal definitions, at MN I 477-79. The seven types are also defined, somewhat differently, at Pp 14-15 (§§30-36) and at Vism 659-60 (Ppn 21:74-78). The faith-follower and the Dhamma-follower are also distinguished at 55:24 (V 377,8-24) and 55:25 (V 379,10-21), though the terms themselves are not used there. At 48:12-17 they come at the end of the more usual list of noble persons, in place of the one practising for the realization of the fruit of stream-entry, and here the faith-follower is placed below the Dhamma-follower for the reason that his faculties are weaker.

Briefly, the faith-follower and the Dhamma-follower differ with regard to their dominant faculty: the former relies on faith as the vehicle of progress, the latter on wisdom. When they attain the fruit of stream-entry, the former becomes “one liberated by faith” (saddhāvimutta; see MN I 478,29-34), the latter “one attained by view” (diṭṭhippatta; see MN I 478,18-23).

According to the Abhidhamma system, with its conception of the supramundane path as lasting for only a single mind-moment, both the faith-follower and the Dhamma-follower should be such for only the one mind-moment of the path. This interpretation, however, though advocated by the commentaries, is difficult to reconcile with the Nikāyas. For an interesting discussion of the two models, see Gethin, The Buddhist Path to Awakening, pp. 129-33.

Spk explains “the fixed course of rightness” (sammattaniyāma ) as the noble path (ariyamagga). On the clause, “he is incapable of passing away without having realized the fruit of stream-entry,” Spk says that once the path has arisen there can be no obstruction to the fruit. It quotes Pp 13 (§20): “Should this person be one practising for the realization of the fruit of stream-entry, and should it be the time when the aeon is to burn up, the aeon will not burn up until that person realizes the fruit of stream-entry."
Bhikkhu Bodhi wrote:269. On the Dhamma-follower, see n. 268. The commentaries do not clarify the syntax of the expression ime dhammā evaṃ paññāya mattaso nijjhānaṃ khamanti. Though nijjhānam is accusative, in English idiom it is more naturally rendered with an ablative sense.

Spk: Mattaso nijjhānaṃ khamantī ti pamāṇato olokanaṃ khamanti; “Accepted after being pondered to a sufficient degree”: accepted in measure (through) examination. Spkpṭ: Olokanan ti saccābhisamayasaṅkhātaṃ dassanaṃ; khamanti sahanti, ñayantī ti attho; “Examination”: vision consisting in the breakthrough to the truths. “Accepted”: consented to, meaning “are known.”

Spk-pṭ is trying to identify the Dhamma-follower’s “examination” or “pondering” of the teachings with the breakthrough to the truths achieved on the occasion of stream-entry, but the sutta itself distinguishes them, the former being merely preliminary to the latter.
Bhikkhu Bodhi wrote:270. This statement makes it clear how the stream-enterer differs from those on the way to stream-entry. The faith-follower accepts the teachings on trust (with a limited degree of understanding), the Dhamma-follower through investigation; but the stream-enterer has known and seen the teachings directly. I read with Se: evaṃ jānāti evaṃ passati.
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Re: Fruition Candidacy and Āryans in Theravāda

Post by samseva »

However, I'd advise against using this as "claiming" oneself a faith-follower, and so on. For one, stating to oneself "I'm a a faith-follower" is essentially a conceit, and goes in opposition with the characteristic of anatta, which one should seek to develop one's understanding of.

Most importantly, however, a faith-follower is an individual who has developed the faculty of faith to such a degree that this is what propels him to stream-entry. Similarly with a dhammanusārin, who is someone who has extensively developed the faculty of wisdom/paññā.
Bhikkhu Bodhi wrote:[...] and here the faith-follower is placed below the Dhamma-follower for the reason that his faculties are weaker.
Briefly, the faith-follower and the Dhamma-follower differ with regard to their dominant faculty: the former relies on faith as the vehicle of progress, the latter on wisdom.
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