Samādhi

Exploring the Dhamma, as understood from the perspective of the ancient Pali commentaries.
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Coëmgenu
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Samādhi

Post by Coëmgenu »

What is the most technical and most precise definition for "samādhi," according to Classical Theravāda, that users here are aware of? Does samādhi imply jhāna? Does sammāsamādhi imply jhāna? If not jhāna, what is a samādhi in the Theravādin understanding?

Jhāna and sati cannot be concurrent in Theravāda, as I understand. Can samādhi and sati be concurrent according to the Theravādin understanding?
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Sam Vara
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Re: Samādhi

Post by Sam Vara »

Coëmgenu wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 12:03 pm What is the most technical and most precise definition for "samādhi," according to Classical Theravāda, that users here are aware of? Does samādhi imply jhāna? Does sammāsamādhi imply jhāna? If not jhāna, what is a samādhi in the Theravādin understanding?
It appears from SN 45.8 that sammāsamādhi is indeed jhāna:
And what is right immersion?
Katamo ca, bhikkhave, sammāsamādhi?
It’s when a mendicant, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, enters and remains in the first absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of seclusion, while placing the mind and keeping it connected.
Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu vivicceva kāmehi vivicca akusalehi dhammehi savitakkaṁ savicāraṁ vivekajaṁ pītisukhaṁ paṭhamaṁ jhānaṁ upasampajja viharati.
As the placing of the mind and keeping it connected are stilled, they enter and remain in the second absorption...(and so on...)
There is, however, this, from AN 4.41:
Mendicants, there are these four ways of developing immersion further.
“Catasso imā, bhikkhave, samādhibhāvanā.
What four?
Katamā catasso?
There is a way of developing immersion further that leads to blissful meditation in the present life.
Atthi, bhikkhave, samādhibhāvanā bhāvitā bahulīkatā diṭṭhadhammasukhavihārāya saṁvattati;
There is a way of developing immersion further that leads to gaining knowledge and vision.
atthi, bhikkhave, samādhibhāvanā bhāvitā bahulīkatā ñāṇadassanappaṭilābhāya saṁvattati;
There is a way of developing immersion further that leads to mindfulness and awareness.
atthi, bhikkhave, samādhibhāvanā bhāvitā bahulīkatā satisampajaññāya saṁvattati;
There is a way of developing immersion further that leads to the ending of defilements.
atthi, bhikkhave, samādhibhāvanā bhāvitā bahulīkatā āsavānaṁ khayāya saṁvattati.

And what is the way of developing immersion further that leads to blissful meditation in the present life?
Katamā ca, bhikkhave, samādhibhāvanā bhāvitā bahulīkatā diṭṭhadhammasukhavihārāya saṁvattati?
It’s when a mendicant, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, enters and remains in the first absorption … second absorption … third absorption … fourth absorption.
Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu vivicceva kāmehi …pe… catutthaṁ jhānaṁ upasampajja viharati.
This is the way of developing immersion further that leads to blissful meditation in the present life.
If immersion (samādhi) is developed further, then that raises the question as to what the undeveloped samādhi consisted of, given that the development involves the jhānas.
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Assaji
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Re: Samādhi

Post by Assaji »

Hi Coëmgenu,
Coëmgenu wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 12:03 pm What is the most technical and most precise definition for "samādhi," according to Classical Theravāda, that users here are aware of?
It's a single-attunedness of mind (citass'ekaggatā).

http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/s_t/samaadhi.htm
Coëmgenu wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 12:03 pmDoes samādhi imply jhāna? Does sammāsamādhi imply jhāna? If not jhāna, what is a samādhi in the Theravādin understanding?
Sammāsamādhi is defined as four jhānas.

http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/s_t/samaadhi.htm
Coëmgenu wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 12:03 pmCan samādhi and sati be concurrent according to the Theravādin understanding?
Of course. Sati (retention, keeping in mind) is a key element of the samādhi-khandha.
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samseva
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Re: Samādhi

Post by samseva »

Coëmgenu wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 12:03 pm Does samādhi imply jhāna?
Samādhi is a basic component of the mind. According to the Abhidhamma/Classical Theravāda, it is in all consciousness. Everyone has samādhi—even those who have never reached jhāna. Without samādhi, you wouldn't be able to read this post right now.
Coëmgenu wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 12:03 pm Jhāna and sati cannot be concurrent in Theravāda, as I understand. Can samādhi and sati be concurrent according to the Theravādin understanding?
Sati, according to Classical Theravāda, is present in all wholesome consciousness. Therefore, sati is present in every moment while in jhāna.
Coëmgenu wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 12:03 pm Does sammāsamādhi imply jhāna?
Sammā-samādhi is not necessarlily jhāna.

Ven. Anālayo, in From Grasping to Emptiness — Excursions into the Thought-world of the Pāli Discourses II (p. 132-133):
Anālayo wrote:Another definition of right concentration, found in a few discourses, does not mention the absorptions (see DN II 217; MN III 71; SN V 21 and AN IV 40). One of these discourses is the Mahācattārīsaka-sutta, a discourse which defines right concentration as unification of the mind (cittassekaggatā) developed in interdependence with the other seven path-factors (MN III 71). This definition highlights the fact that in order for concentration to become ‘right’ concentration, it needs to be developed as part of the noble eightfold path.
Judging from other discourses, the expression ‘unification of the mind’ is not confined to absorption concentration, since the same expression occurs in relation to walking and standing (AN II 14) or to listening to the Dhamma (AN III 175), activities which would not be compatible with absorption attainment. This suggests that this second definition of ‘right concentration’ would also include levels of samādhi that have not yet reached the depth of absorption concentration. In fact, the formulation of this second definition makes it clear that the decisive factor qualifying concentration as ‘right’ is not merely the depth of concentration achieved, but the purpose for which concentration is employed.

A similar nuance underlies the qualification sammā, ‘right’, which literally means “togetherness”, or to be “connected in one”. This thus indicates that the criterion for describing concentration as sammā, as ‘right’, is whether it is developed ‘together’ with the other factors of the noble eightfold path. Of central importance here is the presence of right view, as the forerunner of the whole path, without whose implementation concentration can never be reckoned sammā.
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Re: Samādhi

Post by frank k »

Coëmgenu wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 12:03 pm What is the most technical and most precise definition for "samādhi," according to Classical Theravāda, that users here are aware of? Does samādhi imply jhāna? Does sammāsamādhi imply jhāna? If not jhāna, what is a samādhi in the Theravādin understanding?

Jhāna and sati cannot be concurrent in Theravāda, as I understand. Can samādhi and sati be concurrent according to the Theravādin understanding?
https://lucid24.org/sted/8aam/8samadhi/ ... index.html
That is an alphabetized summary including pali excerpts of every type of usage of samadhi in the pali suttas.

Third jhana formula contains "sato ca sampajano", otherwise known as the 4 satipatthana.
So if it's embedded in the 3rd jhana formula, why would you think it's something you can't do while your in 3rd jhana?
Is MN 111 Theravada? MN 111 clearly differentiates vipassana being done WHILE IN first 7 attainments, as opposed to the last two which require emerging from frozen state before examining the past tense state of what happened.

Maybe you misunderstand the label Theravada, and what you mean to say is LBT (late buddhist texts, such as Abhidhamma and Vism. overriding EBT), or some other label. I guess "classical theravada" is understood to mean LBT?

edit: addition
I think what you're really asking about, is LBT Vism. notion of "jhāna" and appana samadhi, being a predetermined time of frozen stupor that one has to emerge from. samādhi, even in LBT, has to be broader than appana samadhi and VRJ (vism. redefinition of jhana).
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Re: Samādhi

Post by samseva »

frank k wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 4:23 pm Third jhana formula contains "sato ca sampajano", otherwise known as the 4 satipatthana.
"Sato ca sampajāno" is "mindfulness and clear comprehension." It's not the four satipaṭṭhāna. It's not because it is described in a Sutta that talks about the four satipaṭṭhāna that it is satipaṭṭhāna.

"Sato ca sampajāno"" is simply "while mindful and fully aware," which is described alongside the third jhāna, yes, but it doesn't mean that it is the third jhāna.
Then, friends, it occurred to me: ‘Here, with the fading away as well of rapture, a bhikkhu dwells equanimous and, mindful and clearly comprehending, he experiences happiness with the body; he enters and dwells in the third jhāna of which the noble ones declare: “He is equanimous, mindful, one who dwells happily.” This is called the third jhāna.

Tassa mayhaṁ, āvuso, etadahosi—idha bhikkhu pītiyā ca virāgā upekkhako ca viharati sato ca sampajāno sukhañca kāyena paṭisaṁvedeti, yaṁ taṁ ariyā ācikkhanti: ‘upekkhako satimā sukhavihārī’ti tatiyaṁ jhānaṁ upasampajja viharati.
frank k wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 4:23 pm Maybe you misunderstand the label Theravada, and what you mean to say is LBT (late buddhist texts, such as Abhidhamma and Vism. overriding EBT), or some other label. I guess "classical theravada" is understood to mean LBT?
Maybe you misunderstand the label Theravāda? LBT was made up by one or a few individuals, and is based on "EBT"—and EBT is a very recent acronym.
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Re: Samādhi

Post by Ontheway »

IMO, EBTs supporters are more closely related to Sautrāntika sect.

"Their name means literally 'those who rely upon the sutras', which indicated, as stated by the commentator Yasomitra, that they hold the sutras, but not the Abhidharma commentaries (sastras), as authoritative." (Wikipedia)

Which is different from Theravāda that hold Pali Tipitaka canon as authority.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
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frank k
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Re: Samādhi

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You're on my blocked list, so I don't see your messages unless I specifically click a button to show it.

I did happen to read this message, I think many LBT followers are going to have this wrong understanding as you described so it's worth addressing.

Look at what sati means, as the Buddha defined it. For example SN 47.2
https://lucid24.org/sn/sn47/sn47-002/index.html
And many other suttas repeat that same definition for sati, and for sampajano.
Now look at how sampajano is defined with an additional meaning for someone quietly sitting in jhana, in AN 4.41.
https://lucid24.org/an/an04/an04-0041/index.html

Look at the title of the sutta, and notice the content of the sutta are all jhana related. Look at how sampajano is defined there.

Sati still means the same thing, sati is the four satipatthana by default.
Being 'mindful' according to the Buddha, is continuously doing 4 satipatthana.
When you're watching rise and fall of vedana, sensations, sanna perceptions, for example the flux of pleasurable bliss in full body awareness in breath meditation, that's sampajano as defined in AN 4.41 and MN 111. Look it up.

As for the label Theravada, I've asked teachers who follow EBT ordained in the Theravada tradition, they say Theravada also includes the followers who assert the primacy of EBT when other parts of the tipitaka contradict it. I don't know if that's universally agreed on definition, but EBT followers who want to ordain don't have many options do they?

Thera-vada (sayings of the elders) is a funny name. The younger generations who ignore their elders who composed the EBT, contradict their sayings, call themselves elders and claim there are no contradictions. Classic. I guess that's what "classical theravada" means.

edit: addition,
Out of curiousity, what do you think third jhana "mindful and aware" is doing? According to LBT redefinition of jhana, you're frozen in a stupor for a predetermined amount of time, where cetana (intention) is shut off, awareness of body is shut off, sense of time is shut off. What exactly are you mindful and aware of during this time?


samseva wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 4:38 pm
frank k wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 4:23 pm Third jhana formula contains "sato ca sampajano", otherwise known as the 4 satipatthana.
"Sato ca sampajāno" is "mindfulness and clear comprehension." It's not the four satipaṭṭhāna. It's not because it is described in a Sutta that talks about the four satipaṭṭhāna that it is satipaṭṭhāna.

"Sato ca sampajāno"" is simply "while mindful and fully aware," which is described alongside the third jhāna, yes, but it doesn't mean that it is the third jhāna.


Then, friends, it occurred to me: ‘Here, with the fading away as well of rapture, a bhikkhu dwells equanimous and, mindful and clearly comprehending, he experiences happiness with the body; he enters and dwells in the third jhāna of which the noble ones declare: “He is equanimous, mindful, one who dwells happily.” This is called the third jhāna.

Tassa mayhaṁ, āvuso, etadahosi—idha bhikkhu pītiyā ca virāgā upekkhako ca viharati sato ca sampajāno sukhañca kāyena paṭisaṁvedeti, yaṁ taṁ ariyā ācikkhanti: ‘upekkhako satimā sukhavihārī’ti tatiyaṁ jhānaṁ upasampajja viharati.
frank k wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 4:23 pm Maybe you misunderstand the label Theravada, and what you mean to say is LBT (late buddhist texts, such as Abhidhamma and Vism. overriding EBT), or some other label. I guess "classical theravada" is understood to mean LBT?
Maybe you misunderstand the label Theravāda? LBT was made up by one or a few individuals, and is based on "EBT"—and EBT is a very recent acronym.
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Re: Samādhi

Post by Mr. Seek »

Considering Theravada didn't invent the term but borrowed it, I think it's good to just look it up in a normal Indo-European language dictionary. Nothing wrong with that IMHO. Just searching for samadhi on the web should give some good meanings and etymologies.

(Yes, I'm aware that this is the Classical Theravada section. I see nothing wrong with the advice I gave. To my knowledge, this isn't a special Buddhist term, nor does it have a special Buddhist meaning. This is a general spiritual term that predates Buddhism. Maybe someone fluent in the commentaries can contribute better than this post though!)
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Re: Samādhi

Post by samseva »

frank k wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 12:34 pm You're on my blocked list, so I don't see your messages unless I specifically click a button to show it.
Yes. You seem to put members who refute your posts on your ignore list.
frank k wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 12:34 pm Sati, still means the same thing, sati is the four satipatthana by default.
It's not. Sati is a mental factor, and part of the aggregate of saṅkhāra-kkhandha as described in the Suttas.

Sammā-sati is defined by the Buddha as the four satipaṭṭhāna in the Eightfold Path, however, it doesn't mean that the mental factor of sati is the four satipaṭṭhāna. You have sati in your mind right now, but you don't "have the four satipaṭṭhāna in your mind."

The four satipaṭṭhāna is simply the "setting forth/placing" (paṭṭhāna) of sati, on four categories of objects.
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Re: Samādhi

Post by bpallister »

I don't have you on my ignore list, samseva. :hello:
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samseva
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Re: Samādhi

Post by samseva »

frank k wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 4:23 pm Third jhana formula contains "sato ca sampajano", otherwise known as the 4 satipatthana.
So if it's embedded in the 3rd jhana formula, why would you think it's something you can't do while your in 3rd jhana?
Is MN 111 Theravada? MN 111 clearly differentiates vipassana being done WHILE IN first 7 attainments, as opposed to the last two which require emerging from frozen state before examining the past tense state of what happened.
frank k wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 12:34 pm Sati still means the same thing, sati is the four satipatthana by default.
Being 'mindful' according to the Buddha, is continuously doing 4 satipatthana.
When you're watching rise and fall of vedana, sensations, sanna perceptions, for example the flux of pleasurable bliss in full body awareness in breath meditation, that's sampajano as defined in AN 4.41 and MN 111. Look it up.
As the above, where you equate sati as being the four satipaṭṭhāna, and "sato ca sampajāno" as being satipaṭṭhāna... you make soooooo many assumptions, and then try to make various connections, by putting unequivical things together. The result is a compilation of odd interpretations, of which your blog and website mostly consist of.
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Re: Samādhi

Post by frank k »

samseva wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 1:30 pm ...
Yes. You seem to put members who refute your posts on your ignore list.
...
The purpose of a discussion to a forum is to discuss, in good faith. Various points of view are the goal, and are welcome.

A well thought out argument or refutation, presented respectfully, in good faith, is what I hope to see. There's nothing to learn if everyone has the same opinion.

The reason people make my ignore list is because of they don't discuss respectfully, in good faith. They just spam the threads with toxic waste, scaring away others from participating with the volume of their misinformation posted.
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Re: Samādhi

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frank k wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 10:38 am
samseva wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 1:30 pm ...
Yes. You seem to put members who refute your posts on your ignore list.
...
The purpose of a discussion to a forum is to discuss, in good faith. Various points of view are the goal, and are welcome.

A well thought out argument or refutation, presented respectfully, in good faith, is what I hope to see. There's nothing to learn if everyone has the same opinion.

The reason people make my ignore list is because of they don't discuss respectfully, in good faith. They just spam the threads with toxic waste, scaring away others from participating with the volume of their misinformation posted.
I don’t think people are that interested in Frank’s blocking of people.

:focus:
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Samādhi

Post by samseva »

frank k wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 10:38 am Various points of view are the goal
[...]
There's nothing to learn if everyone has the same opinion.
That's new-age babble. Various opinions and views isn't "the goal" (whatever that means).

Moderator note; off topic personal abuse removedfrom this post.
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