Samādhi

Exploring the Dhamma, as understood from the perspective of the ancient Pali commentaries.
thomaslaw
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Re: Samādhi

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The four terms - jhana, vimokha, samadhi, samapatti - are synonyms meaning "meditation", though literally they can be explained differently.

"The Tathagata knows, as they really are, the fault, the purification, and the emergence of meditation (jhana), liberation (vimokha), concentrative meditation (samadhi), attainment (samapatti)"
(The third "power" in SA 684: T 2, p. 168c (CSA ii, p. 315); the seventh in AN 10 21: AN v, p. 34.)

The four terms - jhana, vimokha (or vimokkha), samadhi, samapatti - are listed together.

See: pp. 46-8 in Choong Mun-keat, The Notion of Emptiness in Early Buddhism.
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samseva
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Re: Samādhi

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thomaslaw wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 2:55 am The four terms - jhana, vimokha, samadhi, samapatti - are synonyms meaning "meditation"
[...]
The four terms - jhana, vimokha (or vimokkha), samadhi, samapatti - are listed together.
They're listed together, but it doesn't mean that they're synonyms—and they're not.

And none of these mean "meditation."
thomaslaw
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Re: Samādhi

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thomaslaw wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 2:55 am The four terms - jhana, vimokha, samadhi, samapatti - are synonyms meaning "meditation", though literally they can be explained differently.

"The Tathagata knows, as they really are, the fault, the purification, and the emergence of meditation (jhana), liberation (vimokha), concentrative meditation (samadhi), attainment (samapatti)"
(The third "power" in SA 684: T 2, p. 168c (CSA ii, p. 315); the seventh in AN 10 21: AN v, p. 34.)

The four terms - jhana, vimokha (or vimokkha), samadhi, samapatti - are listed together.

See: pp. 46-8 in Choong Mun-keat, The Notion of Emptiness in Early Buddhism.
https://www.academia.edu/38943344/The_N ... y_Buddhism
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TheSynergist
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Re: Samādhi

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Sam Vara wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 1:35 pm
It appears from SN 45.8 that sammāsamādhi is indeed jhāna:
And what is right immersion?
Katamo ca, bhikkhave, sammāsamādhi?
It’s when a mendicant, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, enters and remains in the first absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of seclusion, while placing the mind and keeping it connected.
Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu vivicceva kāmehi vivicca akusalehi dhammehi savitakkaṁ savicāraṁ vivekajaṁ pītisukhaṁ paṭhamaṁ jhānaṁ upasampajja viharati.
As the placing of the mind and keeping it connected are stilled, they enter and remain in the second absorption...(and so on...)
One thing noteworthy about SN 45.8 is that it makes celibacy part of right action, not merely refraining from sexual misconduct. This makes me suspect this sutta is geared towards very dedicated/experienced practitioners aiming for the last two stages of awakening. I'm skeptical the definitions in the sutta should be generalized for lay ppl aiming for stream entry.

[UPDATE: I checked on Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation, and he says that while all versions of this sutta read celibacy, he choses to translate it as being about sexual misconduct in order to harmonize it with the definitions elsewhere in the nikayas. In any case, it's a concession that SN 45.8 is a bit of an oddity].
samseva wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 2:23 pm Sammā-samādhi is not necessarlily jhāna.

Ven. Anālayo, in From Grasping to Emptiness — Excursions into the Thought-world of the Pāli Discourses II (p. 132-133):
Yeah, I thought Ven. Analayo's work on this topic was very persuasive. It sounds like the Pali tradition might have highlighted Jhanas more than those behind the Agamas.
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Sam Vara
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Re: Samādhi

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TheSynergist wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 5:48 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 1:35 pm
It appears from SN 45.8 that sammāsamādhi is indeed jhāna:
And what is right immersion?
Katamo ca, bhikkhave, sammāsamādhi?
It’s when a mendicant, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, enters and remains in the first absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of seclusion, while placing the mind and keeping it connected.
Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu vivicceva kāmehi vivicca akusalehi dhammehi savitakkaṁ savicāraṁ vivekajaṁ pītisukhaṁ paṭhamaṁ jhānaṁ upasampajja viharati.
As the placing of the mind and keeping it connected are stilled, they enter and remain in the second absorption...(and so on...)
One thing noteworthy about SN 45.8 is that it makes celibacy part of right action, not merely refraining from sexual misconduct. This makes me suspect this sutta is geared towards very dedicated/experienced practitioners aiming for the last two stages of awakening. I'm skeptical the definitions in the sutta should be generalized for lay ppl aiming for stream entry.

[UPDATE: I checked on Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation, and he says that while all versions of this sutta read celibacy, he choses to translate it as being about sexual misconduct in order to harmonize it with the definitions elsewhere in the nikayas. In any case, it's a concession that SN 45.8 is a bit of an oddity].
Yes, thanks for that - I hadn't noticed that bit about sexual misconduct. On a personal level, my teacher is very interested in jhānas and encourages me in that direction. As a result I have some very detailed instructions about jhāna meditation, but samādhi has pretty much dropped out of the picture - along with most of the rest of the eightfold path! I wouldn't know how to practice for samādhi, and am biased towards seeing jhānas as pretty much the solution to everything, including the perfection of samādhi if that's required.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Samādhi

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TheSynergist wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 5:48 pm
Yeah, I thought Ven. Analayo's work on this topic was very persuasive. It sounds like the Pali tradition might have highlighted Jhanas more than those behind the Agamas.
That’s odd, since the Sarvāstivādins were known as dhyana masters. Theravada seemed to have emphasised insight more.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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TheSynergist
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Re: Samādhi

Post by TheSynergist »

Sam Vara wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 7:31 pm
TheSynergist wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 5:48 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 1:35 pm
It appears from SN 45.8 that sammāsamādhi is indeed jhāna:

One thing noteworthy about SN 45.8 is that it makes celibacy part of right action, not merely refraining from sexual misconduct. This makes me suspect this sutta is geared towards very dedicated/experienced practitioners aiming for the last two stages of awakening. I'm skeptical the definitions in the sutta should be generalized for lay ppl aiming for stream entry.

[UPDATE: I checked on Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation, and he says that while all versions of this sutta read celibacy, he choses to translate it as being about sexual misconduct in order to harmonize it with the definitions elsewhere in the nikayas. In any case, it's a concession that SN 45.8 is a bit of an oddity].
Yes, thanks for that - I hadn't noticed that bit about sexual misconduct. On a personal level, my teacher is very interested in jhānas and encourages me in that direction. As a result I have some very detailed instructions about jhāna meditation, but samādhi has pretty much dropped out of the picture - along with most of the rest of the eightfold path! I wouldn't know how to practice for samādhi, and am biased towards seeing jhānas as pretty much the solution to everything, including the perfection of samādhi if that's required.
Well, Jhana is indeed a form of Samadhi — the question is whether it's the only form of Samadhi. But if you don't have Samadhi, you cannot have Jhana.
Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 7:37 pm That’s odd, since the Sarvāstivādins were known as dhyana masters. Theravada seemed to have emphasised insight more.
Hmmm, interesting. I don't know much about these early Buddhist schools. Bear in mind that we're only dealing with a small number of Suttas — I think Ven. Analayo mentioned only 4 Pali suttas that equate right Samadhi with Jhana.
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Re: Samādhi

Post by thomaslaw »

TheSynergist wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 7:53 pm Well, Jhana is indeed a form of Samadhi — the question is whether it's the only form of Samadhi. But if you don't have Samadhi, you cannot have Jhana.
Samadhi is also of three kinds: (1) sunnata-samadhi (emptiness-concentration), (2) animitta-samadhi (non-appearance-concentraition), and (3) appanihita-samadhi (aimless concentration). See p.47 in Choong Mun-keat, The Notion of Emptiness in Early Buddhism.

If Jhana refers to the four Jhanas, then it is Samma Samadhi.
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TheSynergist
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Re: Samādhi

Post by TheSynergist »

thomaslaw wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 2:02 am
TheSynergist wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 7:53 pm Well, Jhana is indeed a form of Samadhi — the question is whether it's the only form of Samadhi. But if you don't have Samadhi, you cannot have Jhana.
Samadhi is also of three kinds: (1) sunnata-samadhi (emptiness-concentration), (2) animitta-samadhi (non-appearance-concentraition), and (3) appanihita-samadhi (aimless concentration). See p.47 in Choong Mun-keat, The Notion of Emptiness in Early Buddhism.

If Jhana refers to the four Jhanas, then it is Samma Samadhi.
And the Ven. Analayo paper challenged the notion that Samma Samadhi necessarily = 4 Jhanas.
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Re: Samādhi

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TheSynergist wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 2:27 am And the Ven. Analayo paper challenged the notion that Samma Samadhi necessarily = 4 Jhanas.
It seems incorrect to say that Samma Samadhi is not 4 Jhanas, according to SN and SA suttas. See p. 211 in Choong Mun-keat, The Fundamental Teachings in Early Buddhism, and p. 47 in The Notion of Emptiness in Early Buddhism.

https://www.academia.edu/12359515/The_F ... ukta_agama

https://www.academia.edu/38943344/The_N ... y_Buddhism
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samseva
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Re: Samādhi

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As Ven. Anālayo says, there are instances in the Suttas where sammā-samādhi isn't defined as the four jhānas, such as MN 117:
What, bhikkhus, is noble right concentration with its supports and its requisites, that is, right view, right intention, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, and right mindfulness? Unification of mind equipped with these seven factors is called noble right concentration with its supports and its requisites.
MN 117 (transl., Bhikkhu Bodhi)
Anālayo wrote:Another definition of right concentration, found in a few discourses, does not mention the absorptions (see DN II 217; MN III 71; SN V 21 and AN IV 40). One of these discourses is the Mahācattārīsaka-sutta, a discourse which defines right concentration as unification of the mind (cittassekaggatā) developed in interdependence with the other seven path-factors (MN III 71). [...]
Judging from other discourses, the expression ‘unification of the mind’ is not confined to absorption concentration, since the same expression occurs in relation to walking and standing (AN II 14)
From Grasping to Emptiness — Excursions into the Thought-world of the Pāli Discourses II (p. 132-133)
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TheSynergist
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Re: Samādhi

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thomaslaw wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 2:42 am
TheSynergist wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 2:27 am And the Ven. Analayo paper challenged the notion that Samma Samadhi necessarily = 4 Jhanas.
It seems incorrect to say that Samma Samadhi is not 4 Jhanas, according to SN and SA suttas. See p. 211 in Choong Mun-keat, The Fundamental Teachings in Early Buddhism, and p. 47 in The Notion of Emptiness in Early Buddhism.

https://www.academia.edu/12359515/The_F ... ukta_agama

https://www.academia.edu/38943344/The_N ... y_Buddhism
I can only respond by suggesting reading Ven. Analayo's article and judging for yourself whether you find his case compelling.
thomaslaw
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Re: Samādhi

Post by thomaslaw »

TheSynergist wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 4:54 pm
thomaslaw wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 2:42 am
TheSynergist wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 2:27 am And the Ven. Analayo paper challenged the notion that Samma Samadhi necessarily = 4 Jhanas.
It seems incorrect to say that Samma Samadhi is not 4 Jhanas, according to SN and SA suttas. See p. 211 in Choong Mun-keat, The Fundamental Teachings in Early Buddhism, and p. 47 in The Notion of Emptiness in Early Buddhism.

https://www.academia.edu/12359515/The_F ... ukta_agama

https://www.academia.edu/38943344/The_N ... y_Buddhism
I can only respond by suggesting reading Ven. Analayo's article and judging for yourself whether you find his case compelling.
I find it not compelling, not convincing.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Samādhi

Post by Ceisiwr »

thomaslaw wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 10:06 am
I find it not compelling, not convincing.
Why?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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