From the classical position only, in which nibbana is not self nor consciousness, why isn't nibbana self?

Exploring the Dhamma, as understood from the perspective of the ancient Pali commentaries.
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cappuccino
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Re: From the classical position only, in which nibbana is not self nor consciousness, why isn't nibbana self?

Post by cappuccino »

Ontheway wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 5:08 pm So, I give you a Sutta reference, then you said it is wrong.
No…
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Gwi II
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Re: From the classical position only, in which nibbana is not self nor consciousness, why isn't nibbana self?

Post by Gwi II »

Self = soul = there is no such thing as soul.

Consider nibbāno as the end of your life (last birth).
For example, Bodhisatto Gotama attained nibbāno
after 4 countless lifetimes plus 100,000 aeons. Let's
just say that later when you have so many aeons you
will definitely reach nibbāno.
Gwi: "There are only-two Sakaṽādins:
Theraṽādå&Ṽibhajjaṽādå, the rest are
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Eko Care
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Re: From the classical position only, in which nibbana is not self nor consciousness, why isn't nibbana self?

Post by Eko Care »

zan wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 2:33 am
Ontheway wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 5:08 pm
Gwi II wrote: Mon Apr 17, 2023 4:23 am
Nibbana is an External reality, not an Internal reality, according to Classical understanding.
AFAIK
Anatta = Nissatta, Nijjiva, Sunna
Nissatta = Not Doer
Nijjiva = Not Life (permanent entity)
Sunna = Not Governor (master/owner/controller)

In order something to be Anattta it should satisfy above requirements.
Therefore obviously Anicca-dukka things (conditioned) are Anatta.
Nevertheless, Not only Anicca-dukkha things are Anatta, but also unborn things (Nibbana and Pannatti) are Anatta.

Reason: Nibbana and Pannatti are also Not Doer, Not Life, Not Governor (because they are unborn)

---------------------------------
Ps: Nibbana is real but unborn,
Pannattis are unreal therefore unborn
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Re: From the classical position only, in which nibbana is not self nor consciousness, why isn't nibbana self?

Post by zan »

Gwi II wrote: Mon Apr 17, 2023 4:23 am Self = soul = there is no such thing as soul.

Consider nibbāno as the end of your life (last birth).
For example, Bodhisatto Gotama attained nibbāno
after 4 countless lifetimes plus 100,000 aeons. Let's
just say that later when you have so many aeons you
will definitely reach nibbāno.
Agreed. Well said. Thanks. If more people understood it this way, we'd have less charlatans making headway in Buddhism. Most Buddhists agree we don't have souls, but then play games with what "self/atta" means. It means soul. We do not have souls. We are not immortal. Everything ceases at nibbana. End of story.
Assume all of my words on dhamma could be incorrect. Seek an arahant for truth.


"If we base ourselves on the Pali Nikayas, then we should be compelled to conclude that Buddhism is realistic. There is no explicit denial anywhere of the external world. Nor is there any positive evidence to show that the world is mind-made or simply a projection of subjective thoughts. That Buddhism recognizes the extra-mental existence of matter and the external world is clearly suggested by the texts. Throughout the discourses it is the language of realism that one encounters.
-Y. Karunadasa
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Re: From the classical position only, in which nibbana is not self nor consciousness, why isn't nibbana self?

Post by befriend »

There is No desire in nibbana, if there's no desire there's no clinging to the five aggregates. No Clinging to the five aggregates because there Annica Dukkha Anatta. There is no self in nibbana because there is no desire. Doesn't Buddha say people get liberated through non clinging?
Take care of mindfulness and mindfulness will take care of you.
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Re: From the classical position only, in which nibbana is not self nor consciousness, why isn't nibbana self?

Post by cappuccino »

befriend wrote: Sat May 06, 2023 2:16 am Doesn't Buddha say people get liberated through non clinging?
No one wants to…
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Re: From the classical position only, in which nibbana is not self nor consciousness, why isn't nibbana self?

Post by befriend »

i just broke up In a relationship and I wanted to share this from a teaching I heard. "Connecting "being mindfully aware" with what is difficult emotionally is very sweet, it has a sweetness to it its very subtle". It helps you get through grief
Take care of mindfulness and mindfulness will take care of you.
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Re: From the classical position only, in which nibbana is not self nor consciousness, why isn't nibbana self?

Post by Dhammapardon »

befriend wrote: Sat May 06, 2023 2:23 am i just broke up In a relationship and I wanted to share this from a teaching I heard. "Connecting "being mindfully aware" with what is difficult emotionally is very sweet, it has a sweetness to it its very subtle". It helps you get through grief
:console:
Just as a bird, wherever it goes, flies with its wings as its only burden; so too is he content with a set of robes to provide for his body and almsfood to provide for his hunger. Wherever he goes, he takes only his barest necessities along. This is how a monk is content.(DN11)
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Re: From the classical position only, in which nibbana is not self nor consciousness, why isn't nibbana self?

Post by befriend »

:namaste:
Take care of mindfulness and mindfulness will take care of you.
pegembara
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Re: From the classical position only, in which nibbana is not self nor consciousness, why isn't nibbana self?

Post by pegembara »

How can that which has no signs and characteristics be a ‘thing’? Not being anything it cannot be a self.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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Re: From the classical position only, in which nibbana is not self nor consciousness, why isn't nibbana self?

Post by cappuccino »

pegembara wrote: Sun May 07, 2023 12:49 pm How can that which has no signs and characteristics be a ‘thing’? Not being anything it cannot be a self.
Nirvana is a dimension … an element
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Re: From the classical position only, in which nibbana is not self nor consciousness, why isn't nibbana self?

Post by Ceisiwr »

befriend wrote: Sat May 06, 2023 2:23 am i just broke up In a relationship and I wanted to share this from a teaching I heard. "Connecting "being mindfully aware" with what is difficult emotionally is very sweet, it has a sweetness to it its very subtle". It helps you get through grief
Sorry to hear that.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: From the classical position only, in which nibbana is not self nor consciousness, why isn't nibbana self?

Post by auto »

zan wrote: Sat May 06, 2023 1:32 am Agreed. Well said. Thanks. If more people understood it this way, we'd have less charlatans making headway in Buddhism. Most Buddhists agree we don't have souls, but then play games with what "self/atta" means. It means soul. We do not have souls. We are not immortal. Everything ceases at nibbana. End of story.
jīva
https://dictionary.sutta.org/browse/j/j%C4%ABva/ wrote:Buddhist Dictionary by NYANATILOKA MAHATHERA

jīva:life,vital principle,individual soul.'Soul (life) and body are identical' and 'Soul and body are different',these two frequently quoted wrong views fall under the 2 kinds of personality-belief (sakkāya-diṭṭhi; s.diṭṭhi),i.e.the first one under the annihilation-belief (uccheda-diṭṭhi) and the second under the eternity-belief (sassata-diṭṭhi)
Bhāvitatta
https://dictionary.sutta.org/browse/b/bh%C4%81vitatta/ wrote: PTS Pali-English dictionary The Pali Text Society's Pali-English dictionary

Bhāvitatta,1 (adj.) [bhāvita+attan] one whose attan (ātman) is bhāvita,i.e.well trained or composed.Attan here=citta (as PvA.139),thus “self-composed,well-balanced" A.IV,26; Sn.277,322,1049; Dh.106,107; Nd2 142; Nd2 475 B (indriyāni bh.); J.II,112 (°bhāvanāya when the training of thought is perfect); Vism.185 (°bhāvana,adj.one of well-trained character),267,400 (+bahulī-kata); DhA.I,122 (a°); ThA.164 (indriya°).See foll.(Page 503)
from above sometimes atta/ātma is synonymous with citta.

Now, what you were saying? who are charlatans?
auto
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Re: From the classical position only, in which nibbana is not self nor consciousness, why isn't nibbana self?

Post by auto »

cappuccino wrote: Sun May 07, 2023 12:52 pm Nirvana is a dimension … an element
element as dhatu?
abhidhamma by dr Mehm Tin Mon wrote: Dhàtu in Pàëi means that which carries its own characteristics
marks or attributes. Element is the closest equivalent for dhàtu.

Now pathavã-dhàtu literally means the earth-element, àpodhàtu
the water-element, tejo-dhàtu the heat element, and vàyodhàtu
the wind-element. But pathavã is not the earth, neither is
àpo water nor vàyo the wind.
wrote:Nibbàna—extinction of defilement and suffering; absolute
lasting peace.
certainly nibbana isn't a self, but something self possesses, experiences?
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Re: From the classical position only, in which nibbana is not self nor consciousness, why isn't nibbana self?

Post by befriend »

Thanks ceisiwr
Take care of mindfulness and mindfulness will take care of you.
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