I got a (apparently) very simple question: The 5 aggregates and the 5 Clinging-Aggregates: What's the difference?

At times it may be more helpful to read "upadana-khandha" as fuel-aggregates, rather than "clinging aggregates", specifically if one wishes to take in the whole metaphor that the four ariyan truths is painting. The aggregates are the fuel for the flames of afflictions (kilesa), the extinguishing (nibbana) of the flames is the end of pain, and whilst in living form this is extinguishing with fuel (sopadhisesa-nibbana), while after physical death, extinguishing without fuel (nirupadhisesa-nibbana).Sacha G wrote:Hi there!
I got a (apparently) very simple question: The 5 aggregates and the 5 Clinging-Aggregates: What's the difference?
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastu ... sage/23957" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;Here are a few notes by Bhikkhu Bodhi on the "Aggregates Sutta"
"The key terms to distinguishing the panca upadanakkhandha(five
clinging aggregates) from the pancakkhandhaa(5 aggregates) are sasava
upadaniya,"with taints and subject to clinging." The 5 clinging
aggregates are included within the 5 aggregates, for all members of
the former set must also be members of the latter set. However, the
fact that a distinction is drawn between them implies that there are
khandha which are anasava anupadaniya,"untainted and not subject to
clinging" On first consideration it would seem that the "bare
aggregates" are those of the Arahant,who has eliminated the asava and
upadana. However in the Abhidhamma all rupa is classified as sasava
and upadaniya, and so to the resultant(vipaka) and functional(kiriya)
mental aggregates of the Arahant....The only aggregates classed as
anasava and anupadaniya (untainted and not subject to clinging) are
the four mental aggregates occurring on the cognitive occasions of
the four supramundane paths and fruits...
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastu ... sage/26007" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;B.Bodhi:
>My paper on "Aggregates and Clinging Aggregates" was published in a
defunct journal, The Pali Buddhist Review, in c. 1976. I don't have a copy
of the paper. My basic argument there was: (1) the only sutta that
explicitly distinguishes between khandhas and upadaanakkhandhas is SN 22:
48. There the latter are defined in the same way as the former *except*
that they are each said to be 'saasava upaadaaniya' ("with taints, subject
to clinging"). It would follow that there must then be aggregates that are
anaasava anupaadaaniya (without taints, not subject to clinging).
Intuitively, these would seem to be the aggregates of the arahant.
However, no such statement can be found in the Nikayas. I then turned to
the Dhammasangani enumeration of 'saasava dhammas' and 'anaasava dhammas',
and 'upaadaaniya dhammas' and 'na upaadaaniya dhammas'. I found that Dhs
classifies the arahant's ordinary cittas and cetasikas under 'saasava' and
'upaadaaniya'. The only khandhas considered 'anaasava' and 'na
upaadaaniya' are the mental khandhas (cittas and cetasikas) of the four
maggas and phalas. All rupas are tainted and subject to clinging. I then
went on to explore the significance of this for an understanding of the
Dhamma; but without the paper I can't recapitulate what I wrote over 25
years ago. The old "Pali Buddhist Review" subsequently merged with another
scholarly journal to become the "Buddhist Studies Review". If you can
track this down on the web, perhaps they have back issues available and
you can find that article. Or perhaps the paper itself is on the web. Just
look for the above title.<
Evidently, the difference is the English word 'Clinging'.Sacha G wrote:Hi there!
I got a (apparently) very simple question: The 5 aggregates and the 5 Clinging-Aggregates: What's the difference?
Paññāsikhara wrote:At times it may be more helpful to read "upadana-khandha" as fuel-aggregates, rather than "clinging aggregates", specifically if one wishes to take in the whole metaphor that the four ariyan truths is painting. The aggregates are the fuel for the flames of afflictions (kilesa), the extinguishing (nibbana) of the flames is the end of pain, and whilst in living form this is extinguishing with fuel (sopadhisesa-nibbana), while after physical death, extinguishing without fuel (nirupadhisesa-nibbana).Sacha G wrote:Hi there!
I got a (apparently) very simple question: The 5 aggregates and the 5 Clinging-Aggregates: What's the difference?
The difference is therefore that for common people, their five aggregates are fuel for the fires of lust, aversion and ignorance, once one has extinguished the fires, is liberated, then the firewood remains but the fires are already put out.
Hi Sacha G,Sacha G wrote:Hi there!
I got a (apparently) very simple question: The 5 aggregates and the 5 Clinging-Aggregates: What's the difference?
Only the puthujjana has personality-view, the view to be in essence somebody (sakkāyaditthi) not a noble one, therefore in case of the puthujjana it is not just form, feeling, perception, fabrications and consciousness, which would be 5 aggregates (pañcakkhandhā) but form as a clinging-aggregate, feeling as a clinging-aggregate, perception as a clinging-aggregate, fabrications as a clinging-aggregate, consciousness as a clinging-aggregate, that is to say the 5 clinging-aggregates (pañc'upādānakkhandhā). In case of an arahant, when clinging has ceased it is also the cessation of personality, so we can also say the 5 aggregates (pañcakkhandhā) is cessation of personality (sakkāyanirodha), which is true for the arahant but not for the puthujjana and the 5 clinging-aggregates (pañc'upādānakkhandhā) of the run-of-the-mill person is personality (sakkāya, shown in MN44).MN44 Culavedalla Sutta wrote:`sakkāyo sakkāyo'ti, ayye, vuccati. katamo nu kho, ayye, sakkāyo vutto bhagavatā"ti?
pañca kho ime, āvuso visākha, upādānakkhandhā sakkāyo vutto bhagavatā, seyyathidaṃ rūpupādānakkhandho, vedanupādānakkhandho, saññupādānakkhandho, saṅkhārupādānakkhandho, viññāṇupādānakkhandho
Personality, personality it is said, lady. What is described to be personality by the Blessed One?"
Five clinging aggregates are the personality described by the Blessed One: form as a clinging-aggregate, feeling as a clinging-aggregate, perception as a clinging-aggregate, fabrications as a clinging-aggregate, consciousness as a clinging-aggregate.
Sacha G wrote:Hi Acinteyyo
Thank for the answer.
That the clinging aggregates are the aggregates when clinging has disappeared (such as in the case of the arhat) doesn't seem completely satisfying.
For 2 reasons:
1°) First the arhat still feels pain (at least physically). You cannot say that pain is not suffering. Therefore pain is a clinging aggregate ( though the arhat doesn't cling to anything anymore).
2°)The commentaries declare that form is necessarely a clinging aggregate. So the body of the arhat is a clinging aggregate (though the arhat doesn't cling to it).
Hi Sacha G,Sacha G wrote:I meant the aggregates of clinging do not become simply aggregate by the fact of the disappearance of clinging within the arhat.
Why not? Pain is just pain, when you cling to it it becomes suffering. It is not the nature of pain to be suffering in the first place. When there is clinging, pain is part of clinging-aggregates, when there isn't clinging pain is a part of aggregates. On one side there is pain and suffering because of clinging which originates from ignorance, on the other hand there is just pain. When there is no ignorance, there is no clinging and no suffering. Even the Buddha felt pain but he didn't suffer.Sacha G wrote:First the arhat still feels pain (at least physically). You cannot say that pain is not suffering. Therefore pain is a clinging aggregate ( though the arhat doesn't cling to anything anymore).
The commentaries may declare this. The Buddha declares that there is clinging to form and there is form without clinging. From the point of view of the arahant "his or her" body isn't part of the clinging aggregates because the arahant doesn't cling to it, the arahant doesn't think this body is my body, my self, I am this body. For the arahant it is just form, feeling, formation, perception, consciousness.Sacha G wrote:The commentaries declare that form is necessarely a clinging aggregate. So the body of the arhat is a clinging aggregate (though the arhat doesn't cling to it).
Sacha G wrote:1°) First the arhat still feels pain (at least physically). You cannot say that pain is not suffering. Therefore pain is a clinging aggregate ( though the arhat doesn't cling to anything anymore).
2°)The commentaries declare that form is necessarely a clinging aggregate. So the body of the arhat is a clinging aggregate (though the arhat doesn't cling to it).
So in case of the arahat who attained the element of Nibbana with the results of past clinging remaining, we're talking about the "living arahat". Although there is no clinging, only aggregates there may be unsatisfactory results of past clinging (e.g. bodily pain). The difficulty here is that with the cessation of clinging actually and in truth there is no arahat to be found anymore. We cannot say that the arahat is "his body". So bodily pain is not the pain of the arahat. Thus there may be unsatisfactory results remaining (pain, the aggregates) because of past clinging but there is no suffering for the arahat.The term nibbana-dhatu is also used in describing two categories of Arahats:
(1) the Arahat who attains the element of Nibbana with the results of past clinging remaining (//sa-upadi-sesa-nibbana-dhatu//) and
(2) the Arahat who attains the element of Nibbana without the results of past clinging remaining (//an-upadi-sesa-nibbana-dhatu//).
As long as an Arahat lives, the results of past clinging will continue to give results, but when an Arahat reaches the end of his life, all cause and effect leading to new births will end.