Kalama Sutta

A forum for members who wish to develop a deeper understanding of the Pali Canon and associated Commentaries, which for discussion purposes are both treated as authoritative.
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stuka
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Re: Kalama Sutta

Post by stuka »

My apologies, I don't know if it is an anomaly inherent to this monitor, but from here, there seems to be no difference between regular and bolded text. Please advise.
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Dhammanando
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Re: Kalama Sutta

Post by Dhammanando »

Hi Stuka,
stuka wrote:My apologies, I don't know if it is an anomaly inherent to this monitor, but from here, there seems to be no difference between regular and bolded text. Please advise.
Hmmm. The difference is clear on mine, and I'm not sure what the cause might be. I'll have to confer with the more computer-literate mods.

Best wishes,
Dhammanando
Anabhirati kho, āvuso, imasmiṃ dhammavinaye dukkhā, abhirati sukhā.

“To not delight in this dhammavinaya, friend, is painful; to delight in it is bliss.”
(Sukhasutta, AN 10:66)
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Eko Care
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Re: Kalama Sutta

Post by Eko Care »

Dhammanando wrote: Mon Jan 05, 2009 4:07 am
  • “Again, Sandaka, here some teacher is a traditionalist, one who regards oral tradition as truth; he teaches a Dhamma by oral tradition, by legends handed down, by what has come down in scriptures (piṭaka-sampadā). But when a teacher is a traditionalist, one who regards oral tradition as truth, some is well remembered and some is wrongly remembered, some is true and some is otherwise.

    “About this a wise man considers thus: ‘This good teacher is a traditionalist … some is true and some is otherwise.’ So when he finds that this holy life is without consolation, he turns away from it and leaves it."
Bhante, What do you think about "Ma takkahetu", "Ma nayahetu" and "Ma akaraparivitakkena" phrases of the same sutta.
Do skeptical people skip them on purpose?
The criterion for rejection

4. "It is proper for you, Kalamas, to doubt, to be uncertain; uncertainty has arisen in you about what is doubtful. Come, Kalamas. Do not go upon what has been acquired by repeated hearing; nor upon tradition; nor upon rumor; nor upon what is in a scripture; nor upon surmise; nor upon an axiom;
nor upon specious reasoning
; nor upon a bias towards a notion that has been pondered over; nor upon another's seeming ability; nor upon the consideration, 'The monk is our teacher.' Kalamas, when you yourselves know: 'These things are bad; these things are blamable; these things are censured by the wise; undertaken and observed, these things lead to harm and ill,' abandon them.
What phrase in Kalama sutta do chronology and phililogy belong to?

Some modern traslations have the phrase as below:
Kalama Sutta
Ma takkahetu.
Do not believe something solely on the grounds of logical reasoning. [Do not be led by mere logic.]

Ma nayahetu.
Do not believe something merely because it accords with your philosophy. [Do not be led by mere deduction or inference.]

Ma akaraparivitakkena.
Do not believe something because it appeals to “common sense”. [Do not be led by considering only outward appearance.]
Do you think you know better than the ancient Sangha ?
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Inedible
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Re: Kalama Sutta

Post by Inedible »

It is like taking math classes and watching the teacher work through problems at the front of the classroom. The people who do their homework learn to solve problems like that, but the people who just watch and don't struggle with the problems don't learn.
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Dhammanando
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Re: Kalama Sutta

Post by Dhammanando »

Eko Care wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 2:09 pm Bhante, What do you think about "Ma takkahetu", "Ma nayahetu" and "Ma akaraparivitakkena" phrases of the same sutta.
Do skeptical people skip them on purpose?

[...]

What phrase in Kalama sutta do chronology and phililogy belong to?
Your questions presuppose an interpretation of the Kālāmasutta in which the entire discourse is regarded as a teaching for everyone.

However I don't take the sutta that way. Rather, I take the negative injunctions in the first half of the sutta as a counsel to undecided outsiders only. I don't think they have anything to say to one who has gone for refuge out of faith.

Quite the contrary in fact. Without anussava, paramparā, itikirāya and piṭaka­sam­padā­na there would be no transmission or learning of the teaching, and thus no possibility for sutamayā paññā. Without takka and naya there would be no development of cintāmaya paññā. Without ākāra­pari­vitak­ka or diṭṭhi­nij­jhā­nak­khan­ti or bhabbarūpatā or samaṇo no garūti (or some combination of these) there would be no preference on the part of a worldling for focusing upon the Buddha's teaching rather than something else.

I do, however, take the positive injunctions in the second half of the Kālāmasutta as a teaching for all.
Anabhirati kho, āvuso, imasmiṃ dhammavinaye dukkhā, abhirati sukhā.

“To not delight in this dhammavinaya, friend, is painful; to delight in it is bliss.”
(Sukhasutta, AN 10:66)
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