making nibbāna a 'thing'

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salayatananirodha
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making nibbāna a 'thing'

Post by salayatananirodha »

https://seeingthroughthenet.net/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/The-Law-of-Dependent-Arising_LE_Rev_1.0.pdf wrote:In an earlier sermon too we have mentioned to you in brief, some incident recorded in the annals of the history of Buddhism. After the Buddha’s demise, when the time came for the holding of the First Council, Venerable Mahā Kassapa Mahā thera was faced with a problem in selecting five hundred arahants for the recital of Dhamma and Vinaya. It was Venerable Ānanda who had committed to memory the entire Dhamma. But he had not attained arahanthood yet. Therefore 499 arahants were selected at first. They were in a dilemma whether to take in Venerable Ānanda or not.

However, at last they decided to take him on the ground that he is incapable of being influenced by prejudices. It is said that on the day before the Council the arahants reminded Venerable Ānanda of his obligation saying: “Friend, tomorrow is our Council. It does not behove you to attend it as a non-arahant. Be diligent.” 7 Those of you who have passed examinations would remember how much you have crammed when you are reminded that tomorrow is the exam. Similarly, Venerable Ānanda too made a firm determination to put forth his best efforts. It is said that he determined thorough mindfulness in regard to the body (kāyagatāsati) and spent the greater part of the night in the promenade pacing up and down mindfully. Probably due to tiredness, in the last watch of the night, he thought of taking some rest, and went and sat on his bed. He was going to lie down, his feet were raised from the floor and his head had not reached the pillow yet, and in the interim his mind was released from all influxes and he attained arahanthood.

Various explanations are given about this extraordinary illumination between two postures. The commentator says that Venerable Ānanda thought: “Now I am striving too hard. Let me balance my spiritual faculties.” That can’t be the reason. There is a subtle psychological norm involved here. Now for Venerable Ānanda, the concept ‘Nibbāna’ appeared as a ‘certificate’ to enter the Council. That is to say, for him ‘Nibbāna’ was something like a certificate. The word ‘Nibbāna’ which stands for ‘giving-up everything’ became a ‘thing’ to be grasped. “I must attain Nibbāna. It is beneath my dignity to attend the Council as a non- arahant.” There itself is conceit and restlessness due to over- exertion. He imagined Nibbāna to be a ‘thing’ and that implies ignorance as well. That is why he could not attain Nibbāna after all that striving. But then, what happened at that particular moment? He had already determined on strenuous effort in all four postures. So if he had lied down on bed he would have continued to put forth strenuous effort. But there is something called ‘posture-junctions’. Most probably he had reckoned without them. However, at that interim instance of bending his body to lie down, he suddenly became aware of an ‘interval’. In that INTERVAL it might have occurred to him: “Oh! I have made a ‘THING’ out of Nibbāna! Isn’t it a term for giving up everything? So why am I struggling?” In that moment of realization he realized Nibbāna and became an Arahant. That is our explanation.
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Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
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Re: making nibbāna a 'thing'

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta »

Nibbana surely is an element.

And, the following is quite a big assumption by Ven. Nanananda. With far fetched assumptions like these, instructions of Ven. Buddhadasa seems a lot more practical and down to earth, in comparison, imo.
  • In that INTERVAL it might have occurred to him: “Oh! I have made a ‘THING’ out of Nibbāna! Isn’t it a term for giving up everything? So why am I struggling?” In that moment of realization he realized Nibbāna and became an Arahant. That is our explanation.
Thanks a lot for the quotes.

:heart:
𝓑𝓾𝓭𝓭𝓱𝓪 𝓗𝓪𝓭 𝓤𝓷𝓮𝓺𝓾𝓲𝓿𝓸𝓬𝓪𝓵𝓵𝔂 𝓓𝓮𝓬𝓵𝓪𝓻𝓮𝓭 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽
  • Iᴅᴇᴀ ᴏꜰ Sᴏᴜʟ ɪs Oᴜᴛᴄᴏᴍᴇ ᴏꜰ ᴀɴ Uᴛᴛᴇʀʟʏ Fᴏᴏʟɪsʜ Vɪᴇᴡ
    V. Nanananda

𝓐𝓷𝓪𝓽𝓽ā 𝓜𝓮𝓪𝓷𝓼 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽 𝓣𝓱𝓮𝓻𝓮 𝓘𝓼
  • Nᴏ sᴜᴄʜ ᴛʜɪɴɢ ᴀs ᴀ Sᴇʟғ, Sᴏᴜʟ, Eɢᴏ, Sᴘɪʀɪᴛ, ᴏʀ Āᴛᴍᴀɴ
    V. Buddhādasa
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confusedlayman
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Re: making nibbāna a 'thing'

Post by confusedlayman »

Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 6:17 am Nibbana surely is an element.

And, the following is quite a big assumption by Ven. Nanananda. With far fetched assumptions like these, instructions of Ven. Buddhadasa seems a lot more practical and down to earth, in comparison, imo.
  • In that INTERVAL it might have occurred to him: “Oh! I have made a ‘THING’ out of Nibbāna! Isn’t it a term for giving up everything? So why am I struggling?” In that moment of realization he realized Nibbāna and became an Arahant. That is our explanation.
Thanks a lot for the quotes.

:heart:
who become arhant in that quote?
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Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
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Re: making nibbāna a 'thing'

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta »

confusedlayman wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 1:04 pm ...
who become arhant in that quote?


Ven. Ānanda.

Please kindly see quotes in OP for broader story.

:heart:
𝓑𝓾𝓭𝓭𝓱𝓪 𝓗𝓪𝓭 𝓤𝓷𝓮𝓺𝓾𝓲𝓿𝓸𝓬𝓪𝓵𝓵𝔂 𝓓𝓮𝓬𝓵𝓪𝓻𝓮𝓭 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽
  • Iᴅᴇᴀ ᴏꜰ Sᴏᴜʟ ɪs Oᴜᴛᴄᴏᴍᴇ ᴏꜰ ᴀɴ Uᴛᴛᴇʀʟʏ Fᴏᴏʟɪsʜ Vɪᴇᴡ
    V. Nanananda

𝓐𝓷𝓪𝓽𝓽ā 𝓜𝓮𝓪𝓷𝓼 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽 𝓣𝓱𝓮𝓻𝓮 𝓘𝓼
  • Nᴏ sᴜᴄʜ ᴛʜɪɴɢ ᴀs ᴀ Sᴇʟғ, Sᴏᴜʟ, Eɢᴏ, Sᴘɪʀɪᴛ, ᴏʀ Āᴛᴍᴀɴ
    V. Buddhādasa
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Aloka
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Re: making nibbāna a 'thing'

Post by Aloka »


Ajahn Chah would use the words ‘the reality of non-grasping’ as the definition for Nibbana: realizing the reality of non-grasping. That helps to put it in a context because the emphasis is on awakening to how we grasp and hold on even to words like ‘Nibbana’ or ‘Buddhism’ or ‘practice’ or ‘søla’ or whatever.

It’s often said that the Buddhist way is not to grasp. But that can become just another statement that we grasp and hold on to. It’s a Catch 22: No matter how hard you try to make sense out of it, you end up in total confusion because of the limitation of language and perception. You have to go beyond language and perception. And the only way to go beyond thinking and emotional habit is through awareness of them, through awareness of thought, through awareness of emotion.

‘The Island that you cannot go beyond’ is the metaphor for this state of being awake and aware, as opposed to the concept of becoming awake and aware.

~from Ajahn Sumedho's introduction to the book "The Island" by Ajahn Pasanno and Ajahn Amaro.

https://amaravati.org/dhamma-books/the-island/

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Re: making nibbāna a 'thing'

Post by SteRo »

An object of belief is made a functional thing. That's pretty straight forward.
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DooDoot
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Re: making nibbāna a 'thing'

Post by DooDoot »

A functional thing is made an object of belief. That's pretty straight forward.
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Re: making nibbāna a 'thing'

Post by DooDoot »

salayatananirodha wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 5:38 am The word ‘Nibbāna’ which stands for ‘giving-up everything’ became a ‘thing’ to be grasped. “I must attain Nibbāna. It is beneath my dignity to attend the Council as a non- arahant.” There itself is conceit and restlessness due to over- exertion. He imagined Nibbāna to be a ‘thing’ and that implies ignorance as well.
It appears the requirement to abandon conceit and restlessness for Nibbana does not necessarily mean Nibbana is not 'thing' ('dhamma; dhatu'). For example, when a person, lost in a hot desert, eventually reaches an oasis with a cool well of pure water than quenches their thirst, that thirst quenching water is a distinct 'thing' (because 'cool' is a different thing or experience to 'hot'). When Nibbana is actually reached, it will be clearly & gratefully known as a 'thing'. You appear to be drawn to the idea that non-conceptuality or non-thinking is Nibbana (which sounds like Mahayana). I suggest to reach Ajahn Buddhadasa's woke book called: Nibbana For Everyone. I am not sure thousands of pages of Nagarjuna or Ñāṇananda conceptuality can lead to their imagined ideals of non-conceptuality. Writing a book called "Magic Of the Mind" does not mean such a book is not more beguiling 'magic'. :ugeek:
205. Having savored the taste of solitude and peace (of Nibbana), pain-free and stainless he becomes, drinking deep the taste of the bliss of the Truth.

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Last edited by DooDoot on Wed Sep 15, 2021 8:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: making nibbāna a 'thing'

Post by pegembara »

The heart of the path is SO simple. No need for long explanations. Give up clinging to love and hate, just rest with things as they are. That is all I do in my own practice. Do not try to become anything. Do not make yourself into anything. Do not be a meditator. Do not become enlightened. When you sit, let it be. When you walk, let it be. Grasp at nothing. Resist nothing. Of course, there are dozens of meditation techniques to develop samadhi and many kinds of vipassana. But it all comes back to this - just let it all be. Step over here where it is cool, out of the battle.

- Ajahn Chah STILL FOREST POOL
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Re: making nibbāna a 'thing'

Post by DooDoot »

Image
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: making nibbāna a 'thing'

Post by Coëmgenu »

There is a debate on this very subject preserved in the Kathāvatthu at Kv 9.2, the Amatārammaṇakathā, between the Theravādins and the Pūrvaśailas:
Controverted Point: That the Deathless as an object of thought is a “fetter.”

Theravādin: If you say that, are you prepared to admit that the Deathless is the object of consciousness accompanied by “Fetters,” “Ties,” “Floods,” “Bonds,” “Hindrances,” “Infections,” “Graspings,” “Corruptions”? Is it not rather an object accompanied by the very opposite?

You affirm that, on account of the Deathless occupying the mind, lust, hate, ignorance may spring up. But are you prepared to admit that the Deathless itself conduces to occasions for lusting, to lusting after, wishing for, being inebriated, and captivated by, languishing for? That it conduces to occasions for hatred, anger, and resentment? That it conduces to occasions for delusion, for depriving of knowledge, for blinding vision, for suspending insight, for siding with trouble, for failing to win Nibbāna? Is it not rather the opposite of all these? How then can you say that, on account of the Deathless occupying the mind, lust, hate, and ignorance spring up? All these things you may truly predicate as springing up because of the occupation of the mind with material qualities (rūpa). But material qualities are not the Deathless.

You would not say that, whereas the Fetters spring up because of material qualities, the latter do not conduce to Fetters, Ties, Floods, and all such spiritual defects and dangers. How then can you affirm just the same of the Deathless: that, whereas the Fetters spring up because of it, it does not conduce to Fetters, and so forth? Or that, whereas lust, hate, and ignorance spring up because of the Deathless, nevertheless the Deathless is not an occasion for lusting and all the rest?

Pubbaseliyas: But was it not said by the Exalted One:

“He perceives Nibbāna as such, and having perceived it he imagines things about Nibbāna, with respect to Nibbāna, things as Nibbāna, that ‘Nibbāna is mine,’ dallying with the idea.”

Therefore the Deathless is an object of thought not yet freed from bondage.
The section is quite short, but the Pūrvaśaila quotes a scripture at the end that they have in-common with the Theravādins, something interesting of note IMO.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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